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Old 09-21-2012, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
She had me at "genitalia."
I know, eh!

Talk about the power of words...
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:36 PM
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This is a little off topic but many of us have been sober for a while and we look at all this stuff and can often think "What's so hard to understand, it's just the mind doing what minds do." That's my reaction anyhow.

It got me thinking back to when i was deep in the throes of addiction. I would have walked over hot coals to get my substance of choice, I was completely hoodwinked into believing that I had no choice and was powerless to not give in, it would only be a matter of time.

if you really think about it, without a working knowledge of how the brain works and the pathways of addiction you are kind of lost. How do you even begin to fight something without an understanding of the most basic stuff?

I guess I believe that anyone new to recovery would be much better off to learn mindfulness, rational recovery and the biology and psychology of addiction as opposed to signing onto the doctrine of powerlessness. Just my opinion tho.
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:47 PM
  # 63 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
AV. But he's been challenged on stuff that to me seems like a distraction, such as his view that addiction is complicated. I don't see how that's relevant to his future abstinence.
It absolutely isn't. Thank you.

I haven't questioned the basic premise of AVRT. Where I find fault has nothing to do with what must be done to address the problem. I can think Trimpey's a bit sideways, or that parts of the book are dodgy, and it matters not one bit when it comes to recognizing the beast.

Originally Posted by Soberlicious
You're sober and you're here.
Considerably better than merely sober. It's been a strong week. Confrontational but necessary meetings handled with aplomb and diplomacy at work, joined a gym and went four days in a row so far, booked a very nice vacation for October...

Really I feel like something of a fraud in this forum. 11 days ago I arrived with three years of half a bottle (or more) of scotch a night under my belt, and I stopped drinking immediately. No significant withdrawal, easy departure, faculties began coming back immediately... it doesn't really seem fair.
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:46 PM
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I'm pretty sure "you're sober and you're here" wasn't a quote from me...but here nor there. I think it's super cool that you are doing well. It's a fallacy that the transition from active addiction to secure abstinence always involves a lot of teeth gnashing. It's just not the case with everyone,nor is it directly correlated to the amount or length of time they drank or what they lost.
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I'm pretty sure "you're sober and you're here" wasn't a quote from me...
Apologies! It was from ReadyAndAble.

That'll learn me.
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:01 PM
  # 66 (permalink)  
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Jakk, I had been drinking almost a fifth of vodka every day for six months, and half that amount daily for years before that. I quit drinking on a Monday morning between 9:30 and 9:45. It didn't take 15 minutes, it's just that I can't remember the exact time.

I've been asked if it was easy, and I don't really have a good answer for that. It was simple, but since there was no question in my mind of struggling at this point, it just was. As you experienced, the first couple of days were a little dodgy, but things came back quite quickly after that.

At first, I wondered if this meant that I hadn't really 'recovered', but I decided that this was just that darling AV of mine speaking, that little dickens. I hope things continue to go so very well for you.
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
I think my previous response to Jakk shows I recognize the importance of pointing out AV. But he's been challenged on stuff that to me seems like a distraction, such as his view that addiction is complicated. I don't see how that's relevant to his future abstinence. AVRT-wise, what matters is that he sees the path out of addiction is simple. (I also happen to agree with him; sometimes addiction can be very complex.)

For me, AVRT's strength is its precision. It should be wielded like a rifle, not a machine gun.
Hmmm. I was a so-called "challenger" of Jakk in this thread, and I'm not gonna agree my efforts, or those, if I may say, of Dalek for that matter, and whom ever else voiced themselves in turn; that our efforts can be summarily reduced down to being in effect a resultant "distraction"....

AV is AV, and its not about being one-up and being a challenger, or otherwise leaving a guy feeling like he's being challenged... its about listening, and responding authentically to what is being heard. End of story.

I said what I said because I chose to say it, not because it worked against Jakk's understanding of what AVRT is or isn't, and neither was I trying to get him set straight, lol. At the end of the day, its what it is, we're all individuals.

Interestingly enough, I suppose, I view AVRT as being both a machine gun, and a sniper rifle, whatever is required, no problemo. I meant what I said to Jakk, and we have agreed to disagree, and last time I knew, we we're both good with that. Cool.
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:22 PM
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...and we have agreed to disagree, and last time I knew, we we're both good with that.
Perfectly fine.

Were I to demand that everybody agree with me, I'd be very lonely very quickly.

In fact, the people I respect most are some of the people I have the greatest disagreements with.
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
Jakk, I had been drinking almost a fifth of vodka every day for six months, and half that amount daily for years before that.
Had to look up the measurement to find out what a fifth is. So I had been drinking a half to 2/3rds of a fifth (at 96 proof) a night for three years.

I can count on one hand the number of times I actually got through a fifth completely in a night.
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
I was a so-called "challenger" of Jakk in this thread
Yeah, me too, Robby. Looking back over the thread, I realize that I didn't bother to welcome Jakk to the conversation or acknowledge his efforts before firing my two-day volley of counterpoints. I'd like to do a better job than that of balancing AVRT with encouragement. I'm also trying to be mindful that, as Dalek noted, AVRT is an art, not a science.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:25 AM
  # 71 (permalink)  
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AVRT is really just mindfulness that hones in on one thing. It takes being mindful of the addictive voice (thoughts) to what some might consider a ridiculous level. Whether or not analyzing and disceting the thoughts to the Nth degree is really necessary or not is a very individual thing.

It's like going on a diet, some just cut back on calories and increase their exercise. Others weigh their food on those little scales, count calories, keep meticulous food intake records and training journals, etc.etc.

Because AVRT is a learning process it seems that your level of insight will be directly proportional to the degree you analyze and discet the thoughts. To learn the finer points it probably couldn't hurt to carry it to the Nth degree. (For a while anyhow)

I'm currently trying to apply the AVRT like focus and precision to other things. Wouldn't it be beyond cool if we could figure out which thoughts and feelings caused us to lose motivation, (become lazy) or if we could somehow short circuit the thoughts that caused mood swings. It is an interesting concept!!
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Old 09-22-2012, 07:51 AM
  # 72 (permalink)  
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Think of the old thought experiment, ""If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" This gets into the question of "Can something exist without being perceived?"

Now think of the question "Can a thought be addictive voice if one does not perceive it as such?" Is reality always based on observable perception or can the subconscious mind make some perceptions without our seeing them as such?

Take the old standby "One day at a time". One person might perceive this to mean that it lets the door open for future substance abuse and another might say it's always a new One Day so it really doesn't matter. In my mind the ODAT approach sends all the wrong messages. Subconsciously it sends an "always struggling" ideation. Maybe I'm reading too much into that tho. In the realm of the mind how do you really where the thought ends?
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Old 09-22-2012, 08:26 AM
  # 73 (permalink)  
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Wow- all this intellectual stuff from my little opening post!

I guess I don't even try to think any of this stuff out. I just don't drink. Any voice that tells me I can drink I dismiss as not my true self. I am making good choices as to how I live my life. I am nicer. I just don't drink or use...I guess I'm doing the AVRT for Dummies?
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Old 09-22-2012, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by aeo1313 View Post
Wow- all this intellectual stuff from my little opening post!

I guess I don't even try to think any of this stuff out. I just don't drink. Any voice that tells me I can drink I dismiss as not my true self. I am making good choices as to how I live my life. I am nicer. I just don't drink or use...I guess I'm doing the AVRT for Dummies?
heh heh

you're doing AVRT totally the way it works best!

Awesome.

Thanks for a great thread, aeo.

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Old 09-22-2012, 01:44 PM
  # 75 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by aeo1313 View Post
I guess I don't even try to think any of this stuff out. I just don't drink. Any voice that tells me I can drink I dismiss as not my true self. I am making good choices as to how I live my life. I am nicer. I just don't drink or use...I guess I'm doing the AVRT for Dummies?
You know, while I find AVRT incredibly useful, I am beginning to question whether I should participate in the more granular discussions of it, such as those on the multi-part Secular Connections AVRT thread. Some elements feel increasingly rigid to me, almost like a doctrine, as if the ultimate goal was to master a certain philosophy. I view it as a means to an end, nothing more. My only goal was to escape addiction and cement my abstinence. Mission accomplished, ya know?

Part of what drew me to AVRT in the first place was a reluctance or inability to accept dogma. At the same time, I do not want to muddy the waters for others, because the clarity I saw in AVRT's core principles was also one of the draws. I've been thinking about one Robby's other posts today, about being authentic to himself. That hit home for me.

AVRT for Dummies sounds about right for me.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:56 PM
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As someone new to AVRT I want to thank all of you for your input & thoughts on the subject/technique, I personally find it fascinating. Maybe we could have an AVRT 101 thread/sticky & have others like this for more open talk/thoughts & input.

Thanks for all of your input
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Old 09-22-2012, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
Come on, now. Of course it does. Sound exists in spite of ears. Microphones and sound recorders proved that long ago.

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
"Can a thought be addictive voice if one does not perceive it as such?"
Absolutely. If it supports or even suggests the slightest possibility that you might drink or use, ever, then it is addictive voice. All addicted people have AV thoughts, but they don't always perceive them as such. The whole point of AVRT is to perceive. AVRT is kind of like night vision -- it turns on the lights, and suddenly you can see the AV lurking in the dark.

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Is reality always based on observable perception or can the subconscious mind make some perceptions without our seeing them as such?
AVRT is not that deep.
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Old 09-22-2012, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
You know, while I find AVRT incredibly useful, I am beginning to question whether I should participate in the more granular discussions of it, such as those on the multi-part Secular Connections AVRT thread. Some elements feel increasingly rigid to me, almost like a doctrine, as if the ultimate goal was to master a certain philosophy. I view it as a means to an end, nothing more. My only goal was to escape addiction and cement my abstinence. Mission accomplished, ya know?

Part of what drew me to AVRT in the first place was a reluctance or inability to accept dogma. At the same time, I do not want to muddy the waters for others, because the clarity I saw in AVRT's core principles was also one of the draws. I've been thinking about one Robby's other posts today, about being authentic to himself. That hit home for me.

AVRT for Dummies sounds about right for me.
I hear you, RAA.

Addiction Voice Recognition Technique is for sure more an appreciated art than anything else, is my experience. When discussions become more about the talker than they do the art created, my eyes glaze over, and I begin to prepare for the uneasy awkward ending of the dialogue.

I would think I'm not alone with the idea that we all (sometimes) wonder of ourselves is this all there is? Is there nothing more? Are we there yet?

I appreciate authenticity as a responsible, honorable, actionable choice, which once made respective of each situation, defines and empowers our directional compass. Once we know our personal relative North, we deduce the rest easily. Experience teaches us to be mindful and self-aware of ourselves in a manner which succeeds us past our fight/flight addiction instincts. We learn to do more than simply react.

I enjoy discussions and dialogues within the realms of AVRT, even when sometimes it seems that all that is being discussed is unending clarifications and corrections that may amount to nothing more than dueling personalities, lol. Its the nature of AV which makes it impossible to not be personal, and so, this opens a wealth of experience for all of us to share, no matter how measured our contribution.
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Old 09-22-2012, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
I would think I'm not alone with the idea that we all (sometimes) wonder of ourselves is this all there is? Is there nothing more? Are we there yet?
Not sure if you were referring only to addiction and recovery from addiction, but it is the nature of addiction itself to create the illusion that recovery from addiction isn't really over, that we're not "there" yet.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Once we know our personal relative North, we deduce the rest easily.
As far as AVRT goes, even people who are successful often think "it can't be this easy," but we're "there" in that regard when, as you put it, we find North. AVRT sets your compass pointing North, away from the swamplands of addiction, and bets that you will deduce the rest. AVRT actually becomes boring after a while, second-nature, which is where R&A may be at. Most people who utilize AVRT simply move on, from both addiction and recovery.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Its the nature of AV which makes it impossible to not be personal, and so, this opens a wealth of experience for all of us to share, no matter how measured our contribution.
It's the nature of the Beast to make people defensive. Soberlicious was wondering why Jakkolantern seemed defensive, but it was actually his Beast that was being defensive. It needs to hide from sight in order to be effective in its imperative agenda, but it has nowhere to hide here, and it senses grave danger.

I could have blasted Jakkolanter personally, considering some of what he wrote, but I just ignored most of the irrelevant stuff, and kept shining the light on his Beast. You'll notice it threatened to cut and run at one point, but Jakkolantern apparently decided against that for now. In my mind, that means that he's winning, and that his Beast is losing.

That is what we do here, isn't it?
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Old 09-22-2012, 04:51 PM
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Yeah, it is what we do here. Awesome post, Dalek.
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