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Old 09-20-2012, 09:52 AM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Well, Jakk, we clearly have alot between us philosophically to at best agree that we don't agree, hahaha. No problemo.

I've got no interest in schooling you in whatever, and neither do you require any such effort from me, lol.

I do not in the least dumb myself down with my practice of either AVRT, or with AA, for that matter, and just because you see yourself as somehow excluding your faculties on what is doubt as defined by AVRT in relation with AV, dosen't mean I have that hardship, okay?

Live and let live.

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Old 09-20-2012, 10:59 AM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Jakkolantern View Post
I'm just going to walk away from this conversation because its clear I have a very different opinion/outlook/philosophy than others here.
That is absolutely your prerogative, but you have to bear in mind that AVRT is not a philosophy on life, nor is it even based on any philosophy or school of psychology, save perhaps self-reliance. It is simply a tool contrived for the singular purpose of defeating addiction, mirrored after what people who recover from addiction all on their own generally do.

Since the whole point of AVRT is self-recovery, RR is not a new recovery home, even for skeptics who don't like the 12-Step approach. If you want to discuss AVRT, which is very precise, then you can probably benefit from the input of others. You should know that those others might be as deeply religious as you are a skeptic, however, because AVRT is not really concerned with that kind of thing.

OTOH, if you want a new recovery home, where you can get together with others who think just like you do and discuss secularism or deep skepticism, then you would probably be better off joining one of the secular recovery clubs, or starting your own thread in the secular forum, because AVRT simply isn't it.

Originally Posted by Jakkolantern View Post
But seriously, arguing over the who does the work in "it works" is pedantic and unhelpful.
It does matter for the purposes of AVRT, because the central message of AVRT is that you are on your own, and that there is nothing to treat or cure. This "works" mentality, as if there were a treatment for addiction, doesn't really jive with AVRT, and there is usually AV embedded in such statements. Let me to illustrate what I mean.

Originally Posted by Jakkolantern
But that doesn't concern me as long as it works.
What is this "as long as it works" stuff? Are you saying it might not work, and that you might get drunk again?

Embedded in that statement is the possibility that it won't "work", which means you might drink, and which is therefore, by definition, AV, since it suggests possible future drinking. Here is a potential, but probably typical AV narrative in the background:

AV: "Yes, this AVRT stuff is neat, but only if it works. We'll see how it goes. If it doesn't work and I drink again, I can always try something else. As they say, whatever works, right? In the meantime, while I am shopping for something that works, I can just keep drinking. Yes, that's the ticket."
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:07 PM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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Rather than another long reply, let me say that the reason I might seem defensive is that I dislike participating in forums where one must massage every word in their posts to conform to an exact specification. That is not the nature of a conversation.

In this case, people are looking for any little hint of deviance to jump on the post and declare AV revealed. I understand nuance in expression is the nature of the beast, in this case, but it goes too far in the forum. For instance, I used the inoccuous colloquialism "as long as it works".

First one attacks "it works", inferring I mean that something else besides me does the work, which is in fact misinterpreting the meaning (explained above).

Then it's "what do you mean by 'as long'", when it's clear that I'm not indicating a timeline, but using "as long as" in the age old manner of implying a predicate to acceptance, and not an ongoing thing. For instance, "You can have ice cream as long as you brush your teeth afterward."

This is what I meant by pedantic. It deflates discussion and discourages participation. It also invalidly reaffirms the AV when it's actually not involved at the time.

I wish nobody harm, but this whole chain of thought reminds me heavily of AA, just rebadged. At this stage it feels like a religion. And it absolutely reeks of confirmation bias.

Well, Jakk, we clearly have alot between us philosophically to at best agree that we don't agree, hahaha. No problemo.
No problem at all either.

I'm happy to leave it here, although I certainly will read any replies. Both sides have had their say.

I'm sure we agree on more than we disagree.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:23 PM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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I'm not going to comment on your above recent post other than to say AVRT is a very precise kind of experience, and can be very razor-sharp when a few of us get together, lol. I hear what your saying, and again, I'll just not really add to the already surreal experience you seem to be having for whatever reason...

In any case, I wish you well and all that goes with those wishes with the best of intentions. Stay cool.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:46 PM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
Jakk, I am another avid reader and contributor to this forum. Please do not misunderstand our purpose here - we have our experience with our addiction and with AVRT, and want to share it. We've stepped in every pile of crap there is on our way to where we are today.

You are a most welcome addition to the team, and I hope you continue in this discussion, accepting what we offer in the spirit in which it is offered.
Jakk?
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:10 PM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
Jakk?
Ah - sorry, I was shutting up.

Thank you for the warm welcome. It's appreciated.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:46 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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Well, this teaches me to ignore the thread for a few days. You sure livened up the place, Jakk. And that's always for the good—so thank you!

I dislike participating in forums where one must massage every word in their posts to conform to an exact specification. That is not the nature of a conversation.
It may not be the nature of conversation, but it goes to the very heart of AVRT. I know you think your AV radar is fine, but the thing is, your posts are riddled with AV as defined by AVRT. "So far so good", "I fully expect", "so long as"... you see the pattern? There's a lot of room for possible failure in those statements. Your explanation of "as long as" actually shows why it runs contrary to the Big Plan. Having ice cream is contingent on brushing your teeth. So what is your future abstinence contingent on? Because under AVRT, there can be no conditions.

AVRT requires us to examine and classify thoughts as they occur. Massaging words in a written post is child's play compared with that. Nit picky? Sure it is. That's the whole point.

I have been called out on these forums more than once for sloppy language in my posts. I'm grateful to the crew here for taking the time to do that, because it helps me make sure my own detector is tuned to perfection.

I'm glad you're here, Jakk. I think your skepticism and confidence will serve you very well.
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:07 PM
  # 48 (permalink)  
 
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I wish nobody harm, but this whole chain of thought reminds me heavily of AA, just rebadged. At this stage it feels like a religion. And it absolutely reeks of confirmation bias.
I can see why it might feel like that to you, but if you examine closely you might find some pretty big differences. Popular "recovery" often pushes conformity because individual success depends on group success. "This will work if we all work it." With AVRT, abstinence rests squarely on the individual. It is not dependent/contingent on any outside stuff. My abstinence is not affected by the success or failure of anyone else.

It would benefit you to consider some of the finer points highlighted in this thread, but whether you do or not is your call. I still think you're cool and I'm glad you're here.
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:39 PM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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I got slapped, I mean, helped too, Jakk, when I first started posting about AVRT.

The $64,000 AV question is : What is your plan for your continued use of alcohol? When this question was posed to me, I replied with 'I plan...', or 'I intend...', or something similar. You can imagine what happened next. My response was interpreted as being riddled with doubt and uncertainty, I still don't think that was the case. However, I now realize that I could have made that statement more strongly as 'I will never...'. The AV detectors around here go AAoooogah if anyone finds any doubt or uncertainty in statements concerning relationships with alcohol. Our language in this regard needs to be as tightly defined as our resolve.

It was helpful for me to look back at the AVRT discussion thread and see how these conversations have developed and concluded. It was very comforting to see folks develop their ability and become practiced and mature, and then post infrequently only to say Hi, I'm doing just fine, take care now, eh?

It's a tortured way to make a point, I will agree, but the point still needs making. In matters of self confidence around alcohol, anything other than the Big Plan is AV .
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:10 PM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by freshstart57
The $64,000 AV question is : What is your plan for your continued use of alcohol?
That was answered more than once in this thread. More than twice, probably.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:33 PM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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I made that story all about me, didn't I? I really have to learn to stop that.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:39 PM
  # 52 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Jakkolantern
That was answered more than once in this thread. More than twice, probably.
lol, I like your attitude, Jakk. Fair enough. Like I said a couple days ago, what matters are results. You're sober and you're here. We can quibble over words, but actions speak for themselves. Glad to have you aboard.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57
I made that story all about me, didn't I? I really have to learn to stop that.
Wait—your post was about you? Because when I read it, in my head it became all about me...
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:53 AM
  # 54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble
We can quibble over words, but actions speak for themselves.
Agreed. However...it's not quibbling. Words are extremely powerful. The AV wants nothing more than for me to believe it doesn't matter how I phrase things, and that it's silly to be so nit picky and none of this matters and it's unimportant and Geez people chill the *&ck out for real...
I'm going to tell you in no uncertain terms that because I did not pay close attention to this kind of stuff I had a reversal after 10 years that led to another 7 years of boozing and drugging that ended very very poorly. If I think another can avoid that by pushing them to consider some of these ideas, then I'm happy to kick the beehive. I'm not here to make friends.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:00 AM
  # 55 (permalink)  
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Oh come on—of course we quibble on these threads. We've had discussions about sober vs. abstinent, for crying out loud. I realize that's because "sober" has been given additional connotations in some recovery circles... but it's just silly for me to have to worry about using the word sober here when everyone knows darn well what I mean. And "abstinentlicious" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue...

I think my previous response to Jakk shows I recognize the importance of pointing out AV. But he's been challenged on stuff that to me seems like a distraction, such as his view that addiction is complicated. I don't see how that's relevant to his future abstinence. AVRT-wise, what matters is that he sees the path out of addiction is simple. (I also happen to agree with him; sometimes addiction can be very complex.)

For me, AVRT's strength is its precision. It should be wielded like a rifle, not a machine gun.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:06 AM
  # 56 (permalink)  
 
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Oh but the machine gun matches my black patent pumps so much better...

My point is...language IS important. To think it's not can be dangerous. That's all. xo
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:20 AM
  # 57 (permalink)  
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Language is important. But sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

That Matrix look suits you, by the way.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:47 AM
  # 58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble
But sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
LOVE this quote...but then again I'm a huge fan of any reference to genitalia.

I agree that certain language (ie "sober", "recovery") provides a certain framework to begin discussions. I also understand those terms can sometimes be used to the AV's advantage. The danger for me is not in using certain terms so much as it is in being oblivious as to how the AV can twist those terms.

Personally, my AV loves to tell me what a complex human being I am. That everything that has happened to me in my life is a series of circumstances that no one could possibly understand and that if anyone had to endure what I have, they would surely drink too. The complexity argument used to so intrigue me...but luckily I get easily bored with my AV.
If indeed I am very complex and my circumstances have sometimes absolutely been unbearable... that still has ZERO to do with my past addiction to alcohol.
That Matrix look suits you, by the way.
Thanks...the shoes generally set the tone.
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:07 AM
  # 59 (permalink)  
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Interesting thread.
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:31 AM
  # 60 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Interesting thread.
She had me at "genitalia."
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