Go Back  SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information > Secular Recovery > Secular Connections
Reload this Page >

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 5



Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 5

Old 02-04-2015, 03:06 AM
  # 481 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
I think it's quite natural to miss it, after all it was a big part of your life for a long time and being able to escape had it's charm. I have felt the same. So let yourself feel the feelings and then move on. You are the mountain and your thoughts are the clouds. Clouds can't move the mountain. Try not to beat yourself up about the cigarette. Quitting smoking is HARD! Keep trying. You can do it.
Wholesome is offline  
Old 02-04-2015, 04:29 AM
  # 482 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Washington, MO
Posts: 2,306
Brynn, my heart hugs yours. I have 2 diabetics in my home--a type1 and a 2 and even those two are not the same disorder. I want to slap those who try correlating this condition with alcoholism. The word "disease" has been diluted to near uselessness. Part of that is wanting quick answers but a lot of it is the "marketing" of illnesses. It takes me hours to get real info on any medical condition to get to published works as they don't get the most hits. I also have a dear friend from AA with very aggressive MS whom visiting today will be a priority. This discussion rocks!
anattaboy is offline  
Old 02-04-2015, 05:05 AM
  # 483 (permalink)  
Better when never is never
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Wisconsin near Twin Cities
Posts: 1,745
Originally Posted by anattaboy View Post
The word "disease" has been diluted to near uselessness.
How about if we hyphenate it as "dis-ease" to indicate a disease like state brought about by mild discomfort that requires immediate attention?

(/sarcasm off)
jazzfish is offline  
Old 02-04-2015, 05:10 AM
  # 484 (permalink)  
Hears The Voice
 
Nonsensical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Unshackled
Posts: 7,901
Originally Posted by CelticZebra View Post
having a hard time with my beast, it's got such a big voice in my head, like the dog barking baring it's teeth and my confidence is so LOW it's scaring me.
It's a useful analogy, but you haven't completed it. The big dog is charging, barking and baring it's teeth. It's scary. Then the big dog hits the end of his chain before he reaches you. A chain he cannot break or escape. He is unable to do anything but bark unless you intentionally walk into his arc of influence.

How long do you remain afraid of that barking dog that has no actual power except his bark? A few minutes? Then you tune out the dog's barking and go on with your life. Eventually the dog gets tired of barking and lays down to nap. He's watching you with one eye open, but he knows he can't get off the chain, so unless you come within his reach he's content to lay there.

And you are content to let him.
Nonsensical is offline  
Old 02-04-2015, 11:07 AM
  # 485 (permalink)  
Member
 
jaynie04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Nutmegger
Posts: 1,799
Originally Posted by samseb5351 View Post
This is a very interesting discussion, not so much for me from an objective understanding of who is or isn't an alcoholic, what is or isn't the AV and so on... BUT from a curious observation of our narratives in the addiction/recovery world.
For a while now I have been listening to a Podcast called "unbelievable", it is a christian podcast that discusses some of the big points surrounding christianity and it often invites non-christians and atheists on to debate certain subjects, But it also often has Christians from different sects, denominations, and cultures debating each other on the meaning of Christianity and interpretations of the Bible. I find these Podcasts the most fascinating, not because I am looking to be convinced about anything being spoken (I don't believe any of it) but seeing well educated, well spoken very smart people expressing different interpretations of things and calling it TRUTH tells me a lot about myself and human nature. Each person often expresses polite suggestions that the other is just a bit off center in their understanding, and each person holds a strong belief they hold the TRUTH in their interpretation. What appears to be happening is people hold onto their own unmovable dogma, deep values that (even-though are expressed as unimportant to the big picture) are deeply important to the christian narrative of the individual.

My fascination in regards to these discussions is about cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.
If we break down our motivations and need to call ourselves certain things to reinforce our narrative we can find some interesting similarities. The person who uses the Alcoholic tag with definite personal conviction (usually to re-inforce a certain narrative) is not all that different from the person who uses the non-alcoholic tag with equal personal conviction, in some ways we could consider these attitudes as two sides of the same coin.

.
I appreciate this. I had a similar discussion with my therapist last week. My adamance about the fact that I believe there is no one "right' way runs parallel to others who believe their way is right and sacred. I think there is an innate human condition that longs for something absolute and I don't think any of us are immune to it. IMO, this is an old brain response. Absolutes can be shorthand, cause and effect. The problem arises when we carry over that type of response to life events which aren't absolutes. Fear and safety weigh heavily in a lot of bias, and often the genesis of what may lead us in a particular direction is buried deep beneath a mountain of other values we have added along the way.

I loosely referenced the issue of confirmation bias earlier this week on a thread that was examining use of language and it's effects on us as individuals. I don't think any of us escape the gravitation towards confirmation bias. However, I don't think that is a bad thing in regards to sobriety. Why should my sobriety require me to step outside of who I am? In fact I would argue that it is the cognitive dissonance that is frowned upon by stauncher mainstream models that leave so many new to sobriety hanging. Skepticism is healthy (at least that is what my cognitive bias steers me to). Some of us are more skeptical than others. I am of the belief that sobriety is deeply personal too. So to be told to just act and not think would cause significant internal discomfort to me. Traditionally, institutionalization led to a general infantilizaton bias towards alcoholics, and traditional recovery methods ran parallel to this broader mentality. That process focused on the presumption that alcoholics are unable to decide much for themselves, they were better off being led than having opinions (the number of threads dissecting the word "ego" on SR alone supports this claim!). However, I would argue that it is reconnecting with my ego that was pivotal to my sobriety.
There are parts of me that work really well. Instead of following a directive that insists that all of my actions have led me to alcoholism, how about reaffirming that many behaviors that I already possess will benefit me greatly in sobriety if I tap into them. If there was ever a time to reaffirm specificity, individuality and yes, confirmation bias, then early sobriety is it. Why not catch a ride on a train that feels warm and familiar. I have strong reactions to shame of myself and others, I have strong reactions to dismissiveness, I have strong reactions towards what I perceive injustice to be….I know this about myself. I have made most decisions in my life in accordance with that bias, it makes perfect sense to me that my approach to sobriety had to align with those core values.

I sense a lot of relief from many newcomers on this forum. Many who express feeling left out in the cold because they couldn't escape the nails on the chalkboard feeling of other systems that they have tried. I think this is the cognitive dissonance that arises when one"s core values clashes with a concept of recovery that discounts this bias.

The expansiveness here is welcoming. Watching dignity return to someone is like watching warm blood rush back into ice cold veins. It feels good to feel respected and I have noted how there isn't much competition or quibbling. Why would there be? None of us have the same checklist. But I appreciate when you share yours with me. Newcomers enthusiasm is as inspirational as the sage advice of someone who has been sober longer. Just as traditional recovery methods might feel safe to someone because of their confirmation bias which steers towards ritual, so my confirmation bias directs me towards a looser, less regimented mentality, it aligns better with who I am.

I think expansiveness gives each one of us the room to carve out what we want our sobriety to look like, and more importantly, the room to change our mind. I have watched words being dissected over and over again on threads since I have been here. I think often the net result of what may appear to be innocuous tire kicking is that people become more entrenched, minutiae becomes monumental and it can keep people stuck. I think we all see the confirmation bias on threads where the need to be right escalates, the perceived threat to a mythical absolute triggers an old brain response and you can see the redoubled efforts to find support for someone's existing stance. I have yet to see someone say "By jove, you are so right! I didn't get it at all". However, from a distant perspective these rejoinders aren't about issues, but rather about two old brains battling out perceived absolutes. Most of the heated threads aren't about the issues but rather about bias feeling threatened.

I appreciate this forum because I can feel the bias towards reorientation to the bigger world. Rather than telescoping down and redefining our world through a narrow lens as alcoholics I get a sense of the individuality of each of you redefining yourself with sobriety as a part of your total makeup. I think I gravitate towards the concept of being a non-drinker because it doesn't elevate that one aspect of my life any more than any other part of who I am. Getting sober has changed me, but I see it as a part of my resume, like many other personal decisions I have made along the way. My newest endeavor is to learn how to write shorter posts!
jaynie04 is offline  
Old 02-04-2015, 11:18 AM
  # 486 (permalink)  
Member
 
SDH73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Boston, Mass
Posts: 1,004
Awesome post! Thanks Jaynie!
SDH73 is offline  
Old 02-04-2015, 11:29 AM
  # 487 (permalink)  
Member
 
Lenina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 8,326
very awesome post, jaynie! thanks.

love from Lenina
Lenina is offline  
Old 02-04-2015, 11:37 AM
  # 488 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Originally Posted by jaynie04 View Post
There are parts of me that work really well. Instead of following a directive that insists that all of my actions have led me to alcoholism, how about reaffirming that many behaviors that I already possess will benefit me greatly in sobriety if I tap into them. If there was ever a time to reaffirm specificity, individuality and yes, confirmation bias, then early sobriety is it. Why not catch a ride on a train that feels warm and familiar. I have strong reactions to shame of myself and others, I have strong reactions to dismissiveness, I have strong reactions towards what I perceive injustice to be….I know this about myself. I have made most decisions in my life in accordance with that bias, it makes perfect sense to me that my approach to sobriety had to align with those core values.


The expansiveness here is welcoming. Watching dignity return to someone is like watching warm blood rush back into ice cold veins. It feels good to feel respected and I have noted how there isn't much competition or quibbling. Why would there be? None of us have the same checklist. But I appreciate when you share yours with me.
I relate to the first paragraph, and agree with the rest, good stuff, Jaynie!
Soberpotamus is offline  
Old 02-04-2015, 11:47 AM
  # 489 (permalink)  
Member
 
LBrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
Thumbs up

"I think I gravitate towards the concept of being a non-drinker because it doesn't elevate that one aspect of my life any more than any other part of who I am. Getting sober has changed me, but I see it as a part of my resume, like many other personal decisions I have made along the way."

I like this part by jove. I don't identify as an alcoholic -I don't deny it either - because it does not define me.

Is jove short for jehova? Just wondering.

"My newest endeavor is to learn how to write shorter posts!" I'm surprised you didn't get buzzed by the word counter.
LBrain is offline  
Old 02-04-2015, 12:22 PM
  # 490 (permalink)  
Self recovered Self discovered
 
freshstart57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Jove is Jupiter, the king of gods in the Roman state religion before Christianity. The king of the sky and thunder, his analog was Thor in Norse mythology. He liked to laugh a lot, a jovial character.
freshstart57 is offline  
Old 02-04-2015, 03:51 PM
  # 491 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wollongong NSW
Posts: 241
Originally Posted by jaynie04 View Post
I think there is an innate human condition that longs for something absolute and I don't think any of us are immune to it. IMO, this is an old brain response. Absolutes can be shorthand, cause and effect. I!
I really enjoyed this post, thanks Jaynie both encouraging and challenging at the same time.
samseb5351 is offline  
Old 02-04-2015, 09:01 PM
  # 492 (permalink)  
Member
 
jaynie04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Nutmegger
Posts: 1,799
Okee Dokee Artichokees. i thought by Jove was something Chauncey the butler said or something…..love, love, love the secular forum. I have graced myself with a new signature in honor of this forum.
jaynie04 is offline  
Old 02-05-2015, 06:20 AM
  # 493 (permalink)  
Member
 
MesaMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,472
Great Post, Janie04. You touched upon some of my favorite Themes around here. Perhaps I'll get to those another time. For now, a bit of fun...


By Jove Memes ~ Search Results




-----
MesaMan is offline  
Old 02-09-2015, 02:29 PM
  # 494 (permalink)  
Member
 
LonelyShadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: England
Posts: 808
I've never seen so many amazing and intelligent posts in one thread before, I'm certainly going to enjoy reading through as much as I can.

I'm especially interested in the linguistic aspects, I've never encountered that before on AV but I think I'm going to go through some old posts of mine and see if I can spot AV activity.

Thanks all!

Hope to join in a discussion soon!
LonelyShadow is offline  
Old 02-10-2015, 01:14 PM
  # 495 (permalink)  
Member
 
LonelyShadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: England
Posts: 808
I think what stands out for me most as blatant AV in my early posts last year is this idea that somehow I had an 'Underlying' cause of my addiction, I seemed to be holding on to the idea that once I'd cured my supposed depression and anxiety then curing alcoholism would be simpler.

Once I'd stopped drinking, about 30-40 days in my 'depression' had disappeared. Looking back it seems obvious that this so called depression was due to me purposefully flooding my system with a depressant chemical daily.

It was one of the things that struck home very directly in RR that once you stop drinking a lot of these so called conditions disappear, I do feel I have an unusually high level of anxiety, but I have to wonder, is this the AV?
LonelyShadow is offline  
Old 02-11-2015, 02:29 PM
  # 496 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
My AV has been really active lately... the noise in my head is back. It feels like there's a debate team in my mind sometimes. Did you guys go through this as well? Did you struggle sometimes in the beginning? I'm 8 weeks today and it feels like it is getting harder not easier. I am not going to drink but I wish I could stop thinking about it.
Wholesome is offline  
Old 02-11-2015, 03:23 PM
  # 497 (permalink)  
Member
 
LonelyShadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: England
Posts: 808
It's not so much a debating team, that's your AV trying to make the struggle appear harder than it actually is. It's just You and It, no teams and no debates. Don't get sucked into an argument with your AV just tell it 'No', you don't have to give it a reason. Forget about 8 weeks for now, if you feel like it's getting 'harder' that makes you feel like it will be even harder in the future. It's been difficult now, but you're not drinking, and you never will, so it's not a problem.

You have hope in that It will get quieter the more you ignore It

It only gets easier.
LonelyShadow is offline  
Old 02-11-2015, 03:46 PM
  # 498 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
I'm actually 7 weeks, that was a typo. I'm just having a rotten day. I'm tired and cranky and overwhelmed. It will pass.
Wholesome is offline  
Old 02-11-2015, 04:05 PM
  # 499 (permalink)  
Member
 
LBrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
zen, think of your AV as a 2 year old sitting in a high chair throwing a temper tantrum for no reason. Just ignore it and it will quiet down all by itself.
LBrain is offline  
Old 02-11-2015, 04:10 PM
  # 500 (permalink)  
Self recovered Self discovered
 
freshstart57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
I looked at the size of the task ahead of me and decided that 'degree of difficulty' was something for ski jump tricks and tower diving. It really didn't matter the degree of difficulty, easy or hard, I was done. Closing the door on drinking, locking it, throwing away the key and turning out the lights really goes a long way to silencing the AV.

The attitude to take is that it doesn't matter where your thoughts go. Everything reminds you of a drink? No it doesn't. Not everything. Who cares? You aren't drinking again, ever, no matter what, and that is that.

Now, let's get busy doing something that is rewarding, uplifting, empowering, and that makes you better and the world better. That is where the living is.
freshstart57 is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:17 AM.