Go Back  SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information > Secular Recovery > Secular Connections
Reload this Page >

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 5



Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 5

Old 01-30-2015, 10:48 AM
  # 441 (permalink)  
Member
 
CelticZebra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 508
Originally Posted by petals View Post
well all i can say is wow what a thread! i have spent all day reading and have got through part 5.....now i need to go to part 1 and see where it all started from. so much interesting stuff here.xx
Still reading this entire thread.... In part 4, still waiting for me copy of the book, loco d

Driving my wagon of hope through beautiful views on my road to myself
CelticZebra is offline  
Old 02-01-2015, 02:05 PM
  # 442 (permalink)  
...holds the key
 
brynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,065
Y'all, I was challenged on something the other day and wanted to run it by other AVRT people.
So, Someone said to me, 'once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic', to which I simply said 'no, I USED to be an alcoholic, but I don't drink anymore so I'm no longer an alcoholic.'
And I believe that to be absolutely true. For me to believe that I AM an alcoholic is music to my AVs ears!
I was then told that I AM an alcoholic because if I drank again, I would resume my alcoholic drinking which means I AM an alcoholic. ( What?? ) My response was, well since I will never drink again I guess Ill never find out!
I feel like I didn't really know the answer to that second part...like maybe I missed something. I don't believe I'm simply an alcoholic on 'hiatus' but I'm not sure what to make of it either.
brynn is offline  
Old 02-01-2015, 03:44 PM
  # 443 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
I agree that you are only an alcoholic if you are drinking just like you are only a smoker if you're smoking.
Wholesome is offline  
Old 02-01-2015, 05:02 PM
  # 444 (permalink)  
Self recovered Self discovered
 
freshstart57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Look up the defintion of the word in any reference book. You will see the present tense used - one who is dependent on ~/ one who is addicted to ~/ one who experiences withdrawal from~ This goes for common English usage as well as medical or psychiatric usage. One simply is not addicted to or dependent on a substance that is not being ingested presently.

Once we begin to redefine words to suit a particular agenda, the whole talking thing loses its focus, and enlightened discussion becomes a problem.

I am not addicted to nicotine - I quit smoking 7 months ago. I am not addicted to heroin, I have never used it. I expect I would develop a dependency on either if I were to consume them regularly.

Likewise for me for alcohol. I simply don't fit this meaning of the word. Now, as you now know, there are others who will claim to have been alcoholics before their first drink. Does this mean I could now be a heroin addict and I don't even know it?

I call shenanigans. And yes, this is AV writ large and clear. If I continue to be an alcoholic despite years of continuous abstinence, then a relapse is only a day away, and the AV is cracking open a celebratory beer in anticipation.
freshstart57 is offline  
Old 02-01-2015, 06:01 PM
  # 445 (permalink)  
Member
 
MesaMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,472
The Buck Stops Here

To the List of things I've had to re-think - whether I go to Bars for Food, or what new things I do at certain times of day - I've also had to rethink acceptance of this entire 'precipice'-based thinking that I'm never truly Sober. That I'm only one helpless moment away from a drunk Lifetime of misery. Again. I've also had to learn to recognize how pervasive this sort of 'Projection' is when someone tries to foist their paradigm on me.

When I realized how utterly false this paradigm was, and the various attempts to define the Sobriety discussion in accordance with such presumptions, I took that irrelevant Chess Board of imminent Relapse and upended it off the Table onto the Floor. Doing this is not untrammeled Ego. It's healthy Self Determination. It is a fundamental component of continued Sobriety. It also terminates self-doubt over whether my future Sobriety is 'real', and sustainable.

It has ceased, for me, being about what constrained Chess moves toward Sobriety I need to make. That Chess Board is someone else's. It's their's to own. Not mine.

I define my Sobriety. I also define the Rules by which I maintain my Sobriety.

-----
MesaMan is offline  
Old 02-01-2015, 08:33 PM
  # 446 (permalink)  
...holds the key
 
brynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,065
Thanks for the replies y'all!

The first thing that popped into my head during this discussion was exactly what freshstart said...how can I be addicted to something I don't use.
I use the smoking example all the time. I quit a year ago. Im a non smoker, and the funny thing is that the same people who say 'once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic' would say I'm a non smoker too. Or maybe they'd say an 'ex' smoker....but the point is they wouldn't say an 'ex' alcoholic because they are always in 'pursuit' of sobriety....it's like it's always just out of reach.
Love the chess analogy, mesaman! It's a radical concept that our sobriety IS real...today, right now,...I'm not striving for this unattainable 'sober state'...I'm already sober....and we CAN and should define our own sobriety!
For my own sake I need to stop trying to make sense of illogical concepts that mainstream programs push. This person wanted me to make assumptions about the future based on my past and I wouldn't bite.
brynn is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 05:04 AM
  # 447 (permalink)  
Hears The Voice
 
Nonsensical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Unshackled
Posts: 7,901
I am no longer dependent on alcohol. Yet, I retain the knowledge that if I were to drink again it would be bad, potentially disastrous. If I drink I lose any hope of control and I drink and drink and drink. That is why I choose to live a sober life.

So, not dependent on alcohol = not an alcoholic

Yet I know my reaction to alcohol would be atypical to how the general population reacts to alcohol. What do you call that?

Just curious.
Nonsensical is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 08:00 AM
  # 448 (permalink)  
Member
 
WhatBeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 49
What do you think about comparing it to an allergy? Does that align with AVRT or is it outside the black and white structure of it.
WhatBeast is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 08:11 AM
  # 449 (permalink)  
Member
 
MesaMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,472
Good one, Non...

Personally, I chalk up the possibility of me drinking again right up with other improbables. To focus in on it in some unique 'what if' Relapse thinking either feeds the possibility, or helps support - in some tiny manner - the whole Paradigm that we're all one Drink away from oblivion. All the time. Welp, to borrow a phrase from 'Seinfeld', the Folks working within that Paradigm 'ain't selling it, and I ain't buying it'.

Once that me drinking again is not a possibility, does it deserve some unique Label? Perhaps not. Just having some fun with this question; not trying to nick anyone's perspective.

From other Language Models, Folks say 'I'm Retired Air Force'. 'Ex-Machinist'. 'Retired Cop', or 'Retired Pilot'.

Me, I'd use the term 'Retired Drinker', or 'Ex-Drinker'. To date, I usually say 'I don't drink anymore...' without further needless detail. Some Folks here might want to distinguish between the behavior of no longer Drinking vs. delving into some label pertaining to that discontinued activity. Retired Commercial Pilots are just that. They are never going to fly again Commercially. It's not some 'what if' possibility. They're forever old. I'm forever Sober. Neither state is reversible.

I don't avoid the term 'Alcoholic' because I'm ashamed of it. I'm not, actually. For me, 'Addict' is far more pertinent. However, using the language 'I'm ex-this or ex-that' begs further definition, and it might make the Listener uncomfortable. I'm also an 'ex-Asthmatic'. I outgrew it. I chalk up my Addict propensities to Genetics. I Sunburn, too. More Genetics that I'm not ashamed about. Once I moved beyond the Shame Game related to Alcohol, I don't think much about the rest of the Population and Alcohol, nor their propensity to Sunburn or not.

I think I'll start calling myself a 'Retired Drinker'. It's accurate, and it avoids buying into the paradigm that I'm forever an Alcoholic who's one slip away from oblivion. That precarious thinking is for someone else. I find it mired in hopelessness; enabled helplessness; and dependent on external definitions instead of an internalized one I carry inside me 24/7.

I don't keep myself Sober. For me, that thinking feeds the irrelevant Model that I'm one slip away. That's simply not the case. I am Sober.

Me, I'm done Drinking. Putting some Stake In The Sand re: my former Drinking Life, and then referring back to that today as some 'Touchstone' that I'm some 'ex-' of, doesn't work for me. I haven't thought about being an ex-Asthmatic for years. There's no reason, as time in Sobriety goes on, to not think of past Drinking in the same, detached manner.

This Post caused me to think; a good thing over Coffee. Thanks for that.-)

-----
MesaMan is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 08:12 AM
  # 450 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
I call shenanigans. And yes, this is AV writ large and clear. If I continue to be an alcoholic despite years of continuous abstinence, then a relapse is only a day away, and the AV is cracking open a celebratory beer in anticipation.
Speaking for yourself?

I'm a recovered alcoholic drug addict. I'm sober now for decades. Relapse is not in my future. My AV is armless and kicked to the curb. It's cracking open days are long past, lol.

Nonetheless, I'm still an alcoholic. My alcoholism illness is in and will stay in remission. Speaking for myself.

Interesting thread.

RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 08:23 AM
  # 451 (permalink)  
Self recovered Self discovered
 
freshstart57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Yes, Robby, speaking for myself, personal pronoun first person singular, and you are most welcome to its use as well. I decided to frame this in a way that empowers and enables my desired end state. And you get to do the same. lol.
freshstart57 is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 08:36 AM
  # 452 (permalink)  
Hears The Voice
 
Nonsensical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Unshackled
Posts: 7,901
Originally Posted by MesaMan View Post
To date, I usually say 'I don't drink anymore...' without further needless detail.
I getcha. I also agree that one could live happily ever after without ever contemplating the needless details, but we have wandered down a semantics hole and I find it interesting.

So how would you finish the sentence "I don't drink anymore because..."
...because I was an alcoholic?
...because I have a genetic predisposition to alcohol dependency?

...because I choose not to? That would be accurate, but it avoids the issue of why you concluded that it was the right decision.

I don't drink anymore because I was an alcoholic and I would surely be one again if I started drinking again. Does that mean I am not an alcoholic now?

I don't really care. The labels don't matter to me. Just wondering what people for whom the label matters call that condition that made the rational decision to not drink the right choice for them.
Nonsensical is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 08:45 AM
  # 453 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
So how would you finish the sentence "I don't drink anymore because..."
...because I was an alcoholic?
...because I have a genetic predisposition to alcohol dependency?

...because I choose not to? That would be accurate, but it avoids the issue of why you concluded that it was the right decision.
I don't drink anymore because to drink alcohol for me is to be horribly drunk same day. Chronically drunk to be sure. Why chronically drunk? I'm an alcoholic and being one means alcohol gets me drunk without remedy except to not drink it in the first place.

Being an recovered alcoholic describes my past, present, and future relationship with alcohol ie my alcoholism illness.
RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 09:10 AM
  # 454 (permalink)  
Member
 
LBrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
I know someone who accidentally shot someone with a gun. They never picked up another gun.
Does he need to explain why he doesn't use guns? Is he an ex-shooter?
I know it's a reach. But there are many examples of people not doing things they used to do for any number of reasons. But the stigma attached to the "alcoholic" continues long after alcohol is no longer part of the equation.

So, there must be something to it. How 'we' label ourselves is our own way of dealing with the issue and a personal matter going forward. Whatever works for me to avoid the potential effects of ingesting alcohol - a poison to my thinking - is what I must do. If it involves some hocus pocus ceremony or mantra of sorts, it doesn't matter. Whatever 'I' need to do to put myself in a state of mind that prevents me from drinking is what 'I' must do. If I choose to put a label on myself as a reminder, hurray for me.
If I wish to be a million miles away from such labels, it's my choice.

I don't care about the science behind addiction or the debate on whether or not it's a disease. I don't care if I had some underlying issues that I used alcohol as a coping mechanism. I really don't. All I know is that because I drank a lot, my life was forever changed by it. And I don't want there to ever be another chance for it to happen again. Bottom line right there.

Not drinking is the ONLY cure for me in preventing alcoholism.
Whatever issues I have besides that are dealt with in other ways. But if I drink, I may not be able to address 'other' personal issues.

For me, I just don't drink anymore. Gave it up for health reasons - same as giving up nicotine. After a year or two, no-one who knows me will question why I don't drink. And because 'we' are so self-conscious about it, 'we' worry about it. In the end, nobody else really cares that you don't drink. Some are envious of the fact that I don't drink - amazing but true.
LBrain is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 09:11 AM
  # 455 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Something I enjoy doing with my understanding of my alcoholism illness is to use it as food for my AV while having some Abstinence Commitment Effect (ACE).

Nothing like switching back and forth from my Beast's agony in alcoholism addiction to my sober joy in it's utter despair.

RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 09:43 AM
  # 456 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Washington, MO
Posts: 2,306
I don't drink cola in any form as it sucks w/out vodka. I can safely say I will not sneak a Mtn Dew to see if I am forgetting something. It is Garbage and that is my final answer.
anattaboy is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 09:58 AM
  # 457 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Originally Posted by LBrain View Post
But the stigma attached to the "alcoholic" continues long after alcohol is no longer part of the equation.
I think part of the reason for this is due to the science part of addiction, the limbic system and prefrontal cortex dysfunction that comes with alcoholic drinking.

I don't like stigmas of course, and it can be horribly unfair and damaging to the addict to have to face stigma regularly, especially for a recovered (or recovering) person.

But I think Robby makes some good points and oberservations, and for me, the "whole story" of whether I'm alcoholic or recovered isn't a simple one.
Soberpotamus is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 10:21 AM
  # 458 (permalink)  
Member
 
Lenina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 8,326
I prefer addict as well. It reminds me my brain might attach to another substance or behavior. Recently, I'm noticing an unhealthy relationship to food. I've never had problems with it before. It's sorta crept up on me. My doctor told me the triple whammy of menopause, quitting smoking and thyroid dysfunction plays a part in it too. Plus, I'm under more stress than usual at work and chronic circadian rhythm disturbance add to the mix.

I guess I'm trying to find comfort from an outside source rather than the inside job it really needs to be.

Love from Lenina
Lenina is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 11:39 AM
  # 459 (permalink)  
...holds the key
 
brynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,065
Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post

I don't drink anymore because I was an alcoholic and I would surely be one again if I started drinking again. Does that mean I am not an alcoholic now?

I don't really care. The labels don't matter to me. Just wondering what people for whom the label matters call that condition that made the rational decision to not drink the right choice for them.
This is what stumped me in the discussion that started this whole thing for me.

There is a reason I chose to quit drinking and that reason is based on past experience. It's putting knowledge into action...wisdom.
If we go back to what freshstart said about the definition of an alcoholic then no, I am not drinking therefore I am not an alcoholic. The problem with trying to define ourselves as alcoholics( or addicts) in the future is that it tickles our AV because we are making assumptions that IF we drink again THEN...(fill in the blank).
I don't need to have a label for myself for some non-existent future event. I don't even have to label myself in the here and now. I only have to tell my AV that 'I don't drink' when it rears it's ugly head.

Someone brought up the 'disease' concept. I only know that I personally reject that idea. I rejected that idea long before I ever heard of AVRT. There are lots of reasons I reject it, but one of the main reasons is that it implies I'm a 'victim' of some kind! I'm not a victim....I'm an addict! It implies I had no choice but to pick up a bottle and pour the contents down my throat. In my opinion, that's dangerous territory to tread upon. Maybe someone who knows more about the subject can answer the question.
brynn is offline  
Old 02-02-2015, 12:12 PM
  # 460 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by brynn View Post

Someone brought up the 'disease' concept. I only know that I personally reject that idea. I rejected that idea long before I ever heard of AVRT. There are lots of reasons I reject it, but one of the main reasons is that it implies I'm a 'victim' of some kind! I'm not a victim....I'm an addict! It implies I had no choice but to pick up a bottle and pour the contents down my throat. In my opinion, that's dangerous territory to tread upon. Maybe someone who knows more about the subject can answer the question.
For me, being sober with my alcoholism illness in remission and my living a sober life free of drinking makes the victim debate, for me anyways, moot.

We always have choices, and my being an alcoholic doesn't change my responsibilities in any way. I think people choose to have a victim mentality for many personal reasons, otherwise they do not choose to be a victim, again for personal reasons.
RobbyRobot is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:07 AM.