Obladi

Lol, ReadyAndAble.
It's the twothousandies - you don't have to choose!

Dalek

Except for not requiring a "Higher Power", no. They are based on very different, and largely incompatible paradigms. SMART Recovery is based on Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT), and AVRT violates almost all of the axioms of REBT. REBT is a disputational, reasoning approach, and AVRT is not. The Big Plan of AVRT is absolutistic, unreasoning, and autocratic. It is not necessarily rational, at least by REBT standards.

To the extent that it acknowledges it, REBT views the Addictive Voice as an irrational belief which can be disputed, whereas AVRT does not. In fact, the Beast of AVRT is actually a rational entity. AVRT considers the Addictive Voice a rational, intelligent expression of a valid biological drive. Through the lens of AVRT, the thought processes and behavior of addicted people are actually perfectly logical, predictable, and rational.

If I had to sum it up in a nutshell, SMART, through REBT, sees the AV as irrational, whereas RR, through AVRT, does not. So, there is a bit of a compatibility problem there, IMO.

Dalek

I forgot another big difference. With REBT, there is no separation of the AV from self, as there is with AVRT. Much of this has been covered before, though, and there is a link on the subject at the very top of this thread.

Differences between SMART and RR —

Obladi

Dalek, thank you for drawing the distinction.

I have been bothered for sometime about how I failed at one of those SMART excercises to dispute "irrational beliefs." Cuz with some of them, my question was, "ok, I see this is not a 'good' belief, but what makes it irrational?"

You lifted a little weight from my shoulder, seriously.

ReadyAndAble

This is fascinating stuff, guys.

Are they really worlds apart? It kind of reminds me of this:



Look at it one way, you see the ragged old woman. Look at it another, it's a glamorous young woman.

The Beast is a metaphor. It's a construct to aid in the identification of thoughts, right? These are my thoughts, those are the Beast's. Classification, with the aim to dismiss all thoughts that support future drinking. So doesn't REBT ultimately achieve the same end? It classifies thoughts into rational (don't drink) and irrational (have a drink), dismissing the irrational as being just that.

I personally like the Beast metaphor because it's a cleaner break, a distinct "me" vs. "it" separation. But when I first quit, before I heard of AVRT, it was more like "the real me" vs. "the addict me". That sounds closer to the REBT model to me. It was pretty easy for me to jump from one paradigm to another. They're different... but not that different, are they?

My thoughts are evolving on this by the minute. I've got a couple articles about this I need to read... I don't want to hijack this thread, though...

ReadyAndAble

Too late in all respects, lol... Way too set in my ways to experiment now! And as far as AVRT goes, there's no reason to switch now...

After all, I don't drink, so I am no longer in need of any approach to recovery.

SDLY

Wow folks. Thanks for the incredible replies.

I spent yesterday doing research. Did the AVRT crash course twice (the second time was less abstract to me)

Im weirdly gratefull for my 12 stepping time. It did allow me to accept that my drink/drug problem was out of control. Just ran into a brick wall eventually. I think both these programs (SMART and AVRT) are fantastic. It is a little sad that AA/NA are the only options given to many people.

But if we search long and hard enough we will find them. All of a sudden addiction makes sense to me, and what I understand I can conquer.

I do not feel helpless/powerless at all. I felt extremely powerfull and confident going into meetings when I last started. And that started getting eroded away by the group "consciousness".

I have never felt as powerfull over my addiction as I do now. I look at what ive written and think this is 'crazy', how could I change so quickly... but why not? When a prospector finds a gold nugget, he finds it an instant. Much digging and preparation was done to reach that point, but once found. It is found.

SDLY

and i love that this is debate based on science.... to quote that skinny wrestler from "Nacho libre":
I believe in science

Dalek

No. The Beast is absolutely not a metaphor. It is the name that AVRT gives to addictive desire, or at least the perverted survival drive that generates addictive desire. We can all agree that addictive desire is very real, I presume?

The Beast of AVRT is no more a metaphor than "cat" is a metaphor for a furry carnivorous mammal with four legs and a tail with the ability to purr. It is simply the name given to a very real entity/phenomenon.

Obladi

I understand what both of you are saying, and based on my understanding, you are both correct.

Try this on: When we speak of The Beast, this is a construct that helps us to understand that while the addictive desire of the limbic system is a genuine part of us, it is a lower part of us. It is all animal and all about pleasure. Our higher selves have the ability and power to dominate and overrule our lower selves."

The Beast is a part of me, but I can control myself, despite it's desires.

Obladi

SDLY

Glad it's all making sense to you. Read the book - I think you'll love it.

ReadyAndAble

Dalek, check it out:

That's from an article Trimpey wrote in The Journal of Rational Recovery (September - October, 1993)

freshstart57

A name? A concept? A construct? A metaphor? To me, a metaphor is like a..., no, that's a simile.

ReadyAndAble

Lol, a Beast by any name...

Dalek

Although the structural model is most likely scientifically sound in principle, and others have subsequently 'discovered' its main premise, AVRT is not really based on science. It is based on the experience of the self-recovered population and people that Trimpey has worked with. Trimpey has called AVRT a phenomenological method, meaning that it just copies reality.

NewBeginning010

I am new to AVRT & have gone through the website/crash course & read the threads here & had a question.

In regards to the beast, can it also be alcohol? Is that good or bad? While I was at a concert last night I found myself reacting to seeing alcohol all around me as glasses of the devils poison, this was the first time that I had thought like that I am wondering if it may be connected to my recent mental images of the beast (Urge to drink).

EDIT: I should add that my response wasnt in a terrifying or fearful was but more in a highly acute awareness of the poisones substance around me & to be aware. Like walking on a high cliff ledge or something of the like. END EDIT

Has anyone had any similar situations or use this as a technique?

BTW, the concert that I saw was Stone Temple Pilots & they were awesome & had a great time with friends who had a couple & I drove everyone home. All is good ;-)

Thanks for any insight into your recovery. Cheers ~ NB

freshstart57

This is not like the question addressed by those searching for a higher power who are told that it can be anything. Nope, the Beast is one thing, one thing only and that goes for everybody who has an addiction. The addict is of two minds concerning consumption of the drug of choice - the rational mind that knows that the destructive behaviour must stop, and the addictive mind that simply wants to keep drinking. This addictive mind has been called the parasite, an interesting comparison, but in the AVRT context the addictive mind is The Beast.

The Beast is part of us, and will always be part of us, and therefore just needs to be accepted. Am I making sense?

soberlicious

Hi NewBeginnings,
No, the beast is not alcohol itself. Alcohol itself is neither good nor bad per se, nor is the desire for it. The desire is not yours, it's the beast's. The beast has but one goal and that goal will never ever change. No surprises there. The beast is nothing if not predictable. The heightened awareness you were feeling is because you kicked the beast's beehive. Hang tight. It'll calm down when it knows you're serious.

I'm suuuuper jealous btw. I would love to see STP live. I bet that was an amazing show. Damn.

NewBeginning010

Thanks freshstart57 & Sober,

Nice to know that I was kicking ass... god knows I had enough to to think about a drink as the band showed up late (2 hours after the opening act), it was still a great show but they had to try hard after having a PO'd crowd. BLABBERMOUTH.NET - STONE TEMPLE PILOTS Guitarist Interviewed On 93.7 KCLB ROCKS! (Audio)

Still working on my AVRT & it is coming together nicely, thanks for all of your help & support

NewBeginning010

Yesterday when someone tried to pass me a drink my conviction in saying no scared them so much they almost dropped the beer "You really mean no don't you?" Yes ;-)

Its ok, they didn't know that I will never drink alcohol again