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Old 07-03-2012, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DoubtfulDebs View Post
lol next tuesday - it'll all be different then!!!

(cue death march...)

Oh, I think next Tuesday is a reference to another post you just made where you quoted TU where he had a list of questions to help recognize the AV as a "moving target".

"Does "seven more days of success" suggest that you haven't already succeeded?"
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:09 AM
  # 62 (permalink)  
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I'm sure this is a dead horse, and I'm new to the forum but...

I think "one day at a time" is being taken out of context. It has nothing to do with subliminally or subconsciously setting yourself up for relapse "one day, just not today." Its a practice of doing what addicts and alcoholics find impossible to do while they use: remain in the moment. We hold on to the past or gaze out into tomorrow completely missing today- you know, where reality is. We usually drink or drug today away, and we usually do it because of past hurts or future worries.

I see a lot of speaking for the "beast." The "beast" is your limbic region of the brain. The limbic region is the "caveman" part of your brain, the pleasure center. Its a completely different part of the brain than your logic center. Your limbic region could care less if you say you wont drink today or wont drink ever. Its one of the main reasons why addiction is a chronic illness that can wipe you out when you least expect it.
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:50 AM
  # 63 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by chrisepic View Post
Its a practice of doing what addicts and alcoholics find impossible to do while they use: remain in the moment. We hold on to the past or gaze out into tomorrow completely missing today- you know, where reality is. We usually drink or drug today away, and we usually do it because of past hurts or future worries.
Well, we each have our own subjective experiences with time, no?

For myself, staying in the now was all to easy while drunk, and especially mixing with LSD, and grass, of course. Intoxicated, I cared selfishly and ego-centrically for the now moment in ways which made me very irresponsible, and yes, I did of course drink and drug my today away, but this did not necessarily require me to be preoccupied with either my past, or my possible futures, to totally trash my respective todays.

I can somewhat agree with the thinking of nursing past hurts, and future worries, while being stoned/drunk... the thing is though, once those conditions are satisfied, the now is open for the taking anyways. For me, it's always in the now whenever anyways, since even when travelling back to my selective past, or forward to a possible future, I'm still aware of my travelling the time continuum, and my awareness is always a now experience, and cannot be anything but a now experience.

One-day-at-a-time philosophy and practice of is a confining, redundant, shallow, regretful experience for me, speaking for myself. It has childish responsibilites, and creates childish expectations which are satisfied with childish results.

The past, the present, and all possible futures exist on the same common time continuum, and therefor, they are all equally responsive to any present awareness experienced in any moment on the common continuum....
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:53 AM
  # 64 (permalink)  
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Great post, RobbyRobot.
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:57 AM
  # 65 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by chrisepic View Post
I think "one day at a time" is being taken out of context. It has nothing to do with subliminally or subconsciously setting yourself up for relapse "one day, just not today."
From a very recent thread in this Secular Connections forum:

Originally Posted by FredG View Post
My mind has a hard time with absolute concepts such as 'never', and 'always'. To me any statements that use words like these are set-ups for failure. I try not to think in absolutes. I try to live in the one day at a time frame of mind and today I will not drink, or use, maybe tomorrow, but not today. I'm fairly certain that I can make it through today. I'm not so sure about never.
Thanks, FredG!

Originally Posted by chrisepic View Post
Its a practice of doing what addicts and alcoholics find impossible to do while they use: remain in the moment. We hold on to the past or gaze out into tomorrow completely missing today- you know, where reality is.
Addiction itself is a one-day-at-a-time phenomenon, and addicted people are the foremost experts at remaining in the moment. They often live like creatures of the jungle, except between fixes instead of meals, with time circling around itself, one-day-at-a-time. To hell with the future or tomorrow, says the Beast. All that matters is that next fix, right now.

Originally Posted by chrisepic View Post
Your limbic region could care less if you say you wont drink today or wont drink ever.
Rest assured that the Beast certainly does care, and knows perfectly well the difference between "just for today" and "never". This is why it recoils and goes ballistic when we attempt to make our Big Plan ("I will never drink/use again"), but remains eerily and conspicuously quiet if we say we won't drink 'just for today'.

Don't believe me?

Think to yourself, right now, “I will never drink again,” and mean it. Betcha can’t.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:16 AM
  # 66 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post

The past, the present, and all possible futures exist on the same common time continuum, and therefor, they are all equally responsive to any present awareness experienced in any moment on the common continuum....
Well in the context of quantum physics yes, but in the context of linear western thought, it doesn't appear that way.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Dalek View Post
Addiction itself is a one-day-at-a-time phenomenon, and addicted people are the foremost experts at remaining in the moment. They often live like creatures of the jungle, except between fixes instead of meals, with time circling around itself, one-day-at-a-time. To hell with the future or tomorrow, says the Beast. All that matters is that next fix, right now.
When the high diminishes and the booze wears off, the moment vanishes and I'm left apologizing for what I did and terrified of what tomorrow will bring. So yeah, I totally agree we're experts on being in the moment as active addicts and alcoholics. The only problem is, we cant stay this way, or don't want to, and we seek help. So now the task is learning how to be in the moment sober and change the way we used to think as an addict or alcoholic; learning not to re-injure myself from the past or fear the future because ultimately those were the slices of bread in my addict way of living.



Think to yourself, right now, “I will never drink again,” and mean it. Betcha can’t.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:29 AM
  # 68 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by chrisepic View Post
Well in the context of quantum physics yes, but in the context of linear western thought, it doesn't appear that way.
Quantum physics, eh?

You'd likely be surprised how alive and well practiced quantum physics is in our western lives, you know?

In any case, awareness can only be experienced in the now, and no other realm exists for awareness to exist. It is not important what 'subjective time' awareness is being aware of, its always being aware in the now moment.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Quantum physics, eh?

You'd likely be surprised how alive and well practiced quantum physics is in our western lives, you know?

In any case, awareness can only be experienced in the now, and no other realm exists for awareness to exist. It is not important what 'subjective time' awareness is being aware of, its always being aware in the now moment.
Am I your new play toy or something?
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:37 AM
  # 70 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by chrisepic View Post
So now the task is learning how to be in the moment sober and change the way we used to think as an addict or alcoholic; learning not to re-injure myself from the past or fear the future because ultimately those were the slices of bread in my addict way of living.
Well, not so much learn to be struggling with being in the moment, but more to accept there is no longer an intoxicated escape from the responsibility of living in the moment.

Changing how we think happens as a result of changing our actions. I cannot think my way into acting, I must in fact act to experience action. I can't think my way into a new way of thinking. While in action, my thinking and awareness work together to change my mind in real time.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisepic View Post
Am I your new play toy or something?
No, not to me your not. Do you honestly feel you are?
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Well, not so much learn to be struggling with being in the moment, but more to accept there is no longer an intoxicated escape from the responsibility of living in the moment.

Changing how we think happens as a result of changing our actions. I cannot think my way into acting, I must in fact act to experience action. I can't think my way into a new way of thinking. While in action, my thinking and awareness work together to change my mind in real time.
You're being awfully critical of me Robby. Give the newbie a chance here, really. If I wanted my every word to be jumped on I would go to the JREF forum for Skeptics. I appreciate how you see things but why marginalize the way I see things?
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisepic View Post
You're being awfully critical of me Robby. Give the newbie a chance here, really. If I wanted my every word to be jumped on I would go to the JREF forum for Skeptics. I appreciate how you see things but why marginalize the way I see things?
I hear you, chrisepic. I'm not being critical of you personally, okay? If you feel I am, I offer apology for you having those feelings, sinced you've somehow sourced them to me jumping on you, okay?

You're making some very strict black-n-white statements which invite discussion in this thread, is all I'm being responsive too, you see?

You're not being marginalized, in my mind anyways. I respect your right to be yourself, and share as you so wish. Please appreciate my right to have a discussion without it sinking it personal whatevers, you know?

In any case, i do hear you, and I can be less direct, which is a new skill I'm learning, to be honest.

Thanks for being up front with me, chrisepic.

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Old 07-18-2012, 09:35 PM
  # 74 (permalink)  
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Welcome to the forum, Chris, and thanks for engaging the gauntlet. I hope you will accept my comments in the spirit I intend.
Originally Posted by chrisepic View Post
I think "one day at a time" is being taken out of context. It has nothing to do with subliminally or subconsciously setting yourself up for relapse "one day, just not today." Its a practice of doing what addicts and alcoholics find impossible to do while they use: remain in the moment. We hold on to the past or gaze out into tomorrow completely missing today- you know, where reality is. We usually drink or drug today away, and we usually do it because of past hurts or future worries.
I see truth in this, Chris, that not using today is making that choice to stay present, achieving a sober state for the present moment. I agree with that. But it is also a refusal to make that forever statement. There is an unwillingness or inability to make that stand, once and for all. So, in that sense, it is acceptance of drinking at some time in the future.

The "beast" is your limbic region of the brain. The limbic region is the "caveman" part of your brain, the pleasure center. Its a completely different part of the brain than your logic center. Your limbic region could not care less if you say you wont drink today or wont drink ever.
You get the RR structural model of addiction just fine, the idea that leads so well to the concept of separation from the AV. It is part of me, but it is not me. But the beast is terrified of the idea of never drinking again, or never drinking in the present moment, because that will be the end of its delicious buzz. It screams loudly and otherwise just gets grumpy. It is this beast behaviour, following from the Big Plan to never drink again, that allows the beast to be identified and exposed.

Its one of the main reasons why addiction is a chronic illness that can wipe you out when you least expect it.
It is the ability to recognize the beast that robs it of its power. AVRT makes it impossible for that beast to sneak up on you and convince you to make a mess once again. With this in mind, addiction does not need to be accepted as chronic, and it isn't an illness.
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Old 07-19-2012, 08:16 AM
  # 75 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Changing how we think happens as a result of changing our actions. I cannot think my way into acting, I must in fact act to experience action. I can't think my way into a new way of thinking. While in action, my thinking and awareness work together to change my mind in real time.
It seems to me, these ideas are contradictory to the essence of AVRT.
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Old 07-19-2012, 08:18 AM
  # 76 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
It seems to me, these ideas are contradictory to the essence of AVRT.
Okay. I'm listening. How so?
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Old 07-19-2012, 08:31 AM
  # 77 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Changing how we think happens as a result of changing our actions. I cannot think my way into acting, I must in fact act to experience action. I can't think my way into a new way of thinking. While in action, my thinking and awareness work together to change my mind in real time.
The foundation of AVRT is the thought process going on within one individual. Not a social action type of process with others.
So, I would say "Changing how we act happens as a result of changing our thoughts."

And, of course, "I think my way into acting". I can't imagine another way to do it.

The evolution from dependency to addiction to abstinence IS "thinking my way into a new way of thinking."
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Old 07-19-2012, 09:18 AM
  # 78 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
The foundation of AVRT is the thought process going on within one individual. Not a social action type of process with others.
So, I would say "Changing how we act happens as a result of changing our thoughts."

And, of course, "I think my way into acting". I can't imagine another way to do it.

The evolution from dependency to addiction to abstinence IS "thinking my way into a new way of thinking."

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Changing how we think happens as a result of changing our actions. I cannot think my way into acting, I must in fact act to experience action. I can't think my way into a new way of thinking. While in action, my thinking and awareness work together to change my mind in real time.
Okay, this is interesting. I love to work things out and have better understandings than I had before...

I agree AVRT is a singular process, and indeed not a social acting process with others. Not sure why you added that, but no matter, I agree.

I would say, speaking from my understanding of human evolution, first we did act, then we did think... This seems to make the most sense going forward. I don't see why such a wonderfully human practice has changed much over the eons.

Another way to move into action is to do so absolutely from energies sourced from our well of feelings, of which we have an abundance of, no?

Certainly I have created action, based on feelings, without a moments thought... I'm sure you have experienced something of the same?


>>>The evolution from dependency to addiction to abstinence IS "thinking my way into a new way of thinking."<<<

Well, the process from dependency to addiction to abstinence you have described is missing an essential element -- the use/abuse of alcohol and or drugs, experienced over a finite period of time, yeah?

Abusing alcohol/drugs requires a clearly physical action. So, how about this:

1. alcohol/drug use/abuse
2. dependancy
3. addiction
4. abstinence

Clearly again, first action, then thinking...
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Another way to move into action is to do so absolutely from energies sourced from our well of feelings, of which we have an abundance of, no?
I believe it requires thoughts and not just feelings to commit an act.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Certainly I have created action, based on feelings, without a moments thought... I'm sure you have experienced something of the same?
I believe this is what many people call being "triggered" to act. I limit "triggers" for my actions to simple things like mistakenly putting my hand on a very hot stove. Even driving towards a street light turning yellow requires thoughts.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Originally Posted by GerandTwine
The evolution from dependency to addiction to abstinence IS "thinking my way into a new way of thinking."
Well, the process from dependency to addiction to abstinence you have described is missing an essential element -- the use/abuse of alcohol and or drugs, experienced over a finite period of time, yeah?

Abusing alcohol/drugs requires a clearly physical action. So, how about this:

1. alcohol/drug use/abuse
2. dependancy
3. addiction
4. abstinence

Clearly again, first action, then thinking...
Of course someone must act by drinking a lot in order to become chemically dependent, but AVRT is not about becoming chemically dependent. It is about ending that dependency, and that requires absolutely no actions at all.

If someone were to get in a car accident as a result of their drinking and were laid up in the hospital in a body cast, they would still be perfectly capable of transitioning from alcohol dependency to addiction to abstinence while laying there motionless. This is why AVRT contradicts your belief that "I cannot think my way into a new way of thinking".
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Old 07-19-2012, 01:57 PM
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Robby and Gerand,
I an see how you are both right. Gerand, in a perfect world, we could think ourselves into a new way of thinking. In my case this was not so.

I am new to this so please bear with me...

When I decided to quit, it was pure thinking.
When I wanted to stay quit, it required action.
I joined SR. I asked questions. I found the AVRT threads. I PMed Kanamit.
I did the online courses. It took action to learn how to change my thinking.
This was an active process.
Does my not picking up a drink rely on any of this "action" anymore? No.
But it did help me get here.
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