InsertNameHere

Once again anyone reading let me know if I got it wrong working through day six I think and have only finished the book (well the important bits) a couple of days ago.


So go ahead and add them if that makes you more comfortable, as I understand it the statement "I will never drink and I will never change my mind" that RR suggests is intended to accomplish two things;

1) Affirm your convictions in a rigid and resolute manner.

2) Draw out the objections of your beast so that you may, probably for the first time, experience the presence of the beast as separate from you and begin to positively identify it using AVRT.

Once again as far as I understand it if your chosen phrase of “I will never drink again and I will never change my mind” attains both of those goals then I would think it would work. All you are acknowledging there is just like soberlicious said, that you at one time drank. That is fine, there is no basis in RR for denial of past addictions, only a denial of the ideology that once addicted you are doomed to always be. There is only one condition to the big plan IT HAS TO BE ABSOLUTE! There can be no lee way in this, no wavering, no possibility of any contingency in which it would be acceptable to you personally to drink of your own free will. Anything less than that and those two intentions will not have been accomplished. The first is for obvious reasons, if you have a loophole that you can drink Champaign on new year’s then that is not a rigid and resolute conviction. The second is more tricky, and I explained it somewhat in my first post in reference to ODAAT, and I think a couple of other have mentioned as well. If an addicted person even has the thought that they will never drink again, the idea is that their beast will immediately try to cause them to doubt it. As I have said AV is any and all thoughts that encourage drinking, as well as any and all thoughts that discourage never drinking. So the thoughts of well I can’t really say never, because I don’t know what happens when I die, what if I go to a land where alcohol flows like water and is required to survive wouldn’t I have to drink then? Or whatever the issue the person has with the word, are immediately identified as the AV and by proxy the beast. This is key because it completes the second intention of the Big Plan to draw out the beast.

Uncomfortable yes, a battle…..meeeehhh… not so much. If you compare a diver in a shark cage baiting a great white which is charging at him a battle then yes, but what I see in that scenario is a man whom is safe yet is still exhilarated, and possibly a bit fearful but knows that he has built a solid defense against this 2,000lbs raging incarnation of death. This is the idea, at least at first. You learn the skill set that is Addictive Voice Recognition Training (your cage/defenses), you make your absolute conviction to never again drink(the bait that brings in the shark), the beast comes charging, and you sit your cage recognizing that yes there is a monstrous drinking machine that does not like me in his waters. No, just because he is there does not mean I am in any peril, because I have learned how to protect myself. Eventually your beast will stop fighting you (at least for now) this is when you chum the waters and draw the shark back out and into view or possibly full on attack (the AV/beast exercises such as shifting). Given enough time it is no longer the man in the cage but the shark, even though it has diminished greatly in size it still charges those bars from time to time, but at this point the diver (you) is off exploring the rest of the reef (life) and barley even bothers to notice.

That is the general essence of AVRT, and the “big plan” or “will never drink again…” is essential because without it you do not have an absolute stance and therefore the proper “cage” (practiced AVRT) you need to protect yourself and eventually ensnare the beast, and your beast (shark) feels no great need to attack right now because you have given it no reason to you haven’t endangered it with your big plan(bait), it can wait till later when you think you are safe or are distracted. The importance of attracting the beast right now is not some kind of macho physco babble intended to perk you up and make you think you are doing something. It is to force your beast to come out now so you can get a good hard look at it and know it when you see it again because you will.

The never is key because without it the beast can wait, and pick its own time to attack and you might not be prepared for it. True I think that it would be possible to not use the word never and to not convince yourself of a big plan and still quit drinking, I am sure that people have done it throughout history. What I think is that RR gives you an instruction manual on how to accomplish this in a through efficient and expedited manner. It gives you the steps, directions, and exercises to beat your addiction soundly and with verve. Rather than a 3-5 year miserable forced march through a vastly more prepared and better armed enemies terrain, with a 250lbs pack and a slingshot for a weapon, with nothing but the hope that you will find your way out despite no map (i.e. White Knuckeling).

Sorry if I am feeling a little too metaphorical today! I had fun writing that .

Once again mostly my opinion and what I understand thus far,
I hope it helps.

UofI2008

Pentuate,

Stop worrying about what is right and just try to find what works for you. I've read this thread and your posts and see alot of myself in them when I first started trying to quit. I too have anxiety and social issues that made AA difficult, but, I tried it for a couple of months and found out it wasn't for me. I didn't like the dogma and I think the meetings hurt me at first, not because the program doesn't work, it just wasnt the right fit and I was told over and over it was the only way.

For myself and other AVRT users, the letting go of powerlessness and re-establishing ourselves as the dominant power in our relationship with booze is very therapeutic and freeing. I hated the "never" of AVRT too when I first started. It made me wildly uncomfortable to think that I had to give up my life long companion booze. If you weren't addicted the "never" wouldn't bother you. My first month using AVRT I had to battle, battle, battle to detach that AV voice from my own. Once you learn how to do it though it becomes really easy. It's giving in to the fact that booze can no longer have a place in your life that you are struggling with.

As for the urges a month out, and TU can probably answer this better than me, I have learned from my previous failures what my AV's tactics are. When I get a fleeting urge now it's like old hat, I just say, "sup AV" and let it go. I don't talk or discuss with it.

I hope you find what works best for you because life without booze is WAYYYY better.

Terminally Unique

Nicely put, INH. Many people do figure this all out entirely on their own -- they always have, and they always will -- but it might take them a lot of trial and error to do so. What AVRT does is to accelerate this process, and people often learn in weeks what might otherwise take them years to learn. It provides a paradigm, or framework, that takes the mystery out of addiction and recovery, allowing for a level of refinement in methodology that would be far more difficult otherwise. Your own rapid progress in just a week, which is readily apparent, is a good case in point.

Tippingpoint

If "never" isn't working for you now Pentuate don't presume that you won't come around on this point. It took me about 6 months to get my head around "never". Now that I have an air tight Big Plan I feel infinitely better and can honestly say that I am recovered.

Early on I would have had the exact same point of view that you've so bravely displayed in this thread.

Just remember that if and when you do decide to embrace "never" there is a monumental payoff waiting for you. Stepping from the purgatory of indecision into the light of never was pretty cool if I do say so myself.

Good luck with it all...find your own way...no rush.

m1k3

I have reread some of the thread again and I think I see the issue.

Trying to quit.

You can't try to quit. You either quit or you don't. If you are trying then you haven't quit and if you really have quit then you can't see anything but a future that is alcohol free and there will be no issue with "never".

So, as Yoda says “Do or do not... there is no try.”

InsertNameHere

^ That I agree with, to a degree. I "tried" to quit many times, like most on this site. What I lacked was the actual desire, I knew that I should quit, therefore I wanted to, but I still wanted to get drunk, I enjoyed it. It was only after I decided that I really did want to quit vice should that I was able to accept that i really did not want to drink anymore. That was my ah ha moment. The reason that I have to say that I agree with this to a degree was it took me being sober or trying again at least temporarily, for me to have that thought process form. So I hade to get the information process it for a while, then get the alcohol out of my system for that choice to be made. So I had to try to get sober in order to actually want to get sober, at least that is how it worked for me, everyone is different.

m1k3

To me quitting is an absolute. You have either quit or you haven't.

INH, at some point in your process you decided to quit and did it. Up until then you hadn't. You thought about it, you considered it, you tried it but you hadn't done it.

It's probably just semantics and we are looking at this pretty much the same but I prefer not to give the beast any wiggle room. I used to train Brazilian Jiu Jitsu up until a few months ago. When I sink in a choke I like it to be tight and final. Same way when dealing with the beast.

Your friend,

pentuate

But I did quit smoking after trying many dozens of times. The last time was a total try imo. I just kept trying (during the final quit) and it just got easier and easier and became a "never" in time in action and obviousness. It grew into that. I was not certain if I would succeed. But I was certain I was going to do anything not to smoke. And I really quit it unlike some friends I have who "quit" but really just substituted other things for it like overeating, obsessive exercising, pot smoking, hatred of cigarettes and a judgemental attitude toward smoking and smokers.

I could be wrong but I think what I've been missing is the real desire and a willingness to do anything to quit. That's what I had when I quit smoking. I'm getting to that point I believe. That's why I would take antabuse If I could (though I do have a little fear I could be the rare one to have a bad liver reaction). Because I know myself and I know I would not drink on it. The beauty of it is it stays in the system for a week or more so even if I had a doomsday urge I would be SOL and I have a feeling (based on past exp. with other drugs) getting past some of those urges would go a long way to being done with it.

I am a little skeptical of RR honestly. It does seem to help people which is the only reason I am around asking questions. I just don't know if I want to/can commit to this whole I, beast, problem drinking is immoral paradigm. I don't like the idea of a never because really it is just talk. One of the first expressions I remember learning was never say never. I want to be a never or a non doer and that can only be after it is and after I am. For me it is not something I affirm or even think but what I am without fanfare. I've also read around a little bit about the originator and some of what he writes including his political views and "the beast" really turns me off. Boy does he stretch things. He makes a lot of sweeping generalizations and appears to be very judgemental. And the endless bashing of AA. He paints it as worse than Satan. He is very extreme. I can't help but have that for me reflect on his method.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion and I don't mean any offense with any of this. Just how I feel. Thanks again.

InsertNameHere

HAHA there have been some discussions about Jack and his "views" on other subjects in the AVRT threads I know nothing about it but from what is said I can understand your misgivings. It seems like most people just take RR for what it is worth and leave Jacks views on other things aside.

Terminally Unique

Jack Trimpey's political views are immaterial as far as AVRT itself is concerned, for the simple reason that he did not invent AVRT. It was taught to him by formerly addicted people. RR may be Trimpey's brainchild, but AVRT is not. Choosing not to use AVRT on account of Trimpey is like choosing not to use Methadone simply because the Nazis discovered it. That said, pentuate, you are obviously fully in the grip of your Addictive Voice, and for your sake, I do hope you find your way, whatever that may be.

pentuate

My understanding is that he put it together from working with people who quit on their own. It wasn't any one thing he was taught. It's not just political views that concerns me but also the seeing of them in terms of "the beast". That and saying things like people in AA are lowlifes which is so false that it's just hard to listen to anything else that he says.

But, I'm not saying I reject all of it, or even that I won't use some of it, just that I have some problems with it. And Methadone is a drug. AVRT is a method to quit addictions (I read in some forum that in some early talk he suggested its use for resolving being gay) that involves the convincing for the use of a technique or strategy that includes some psychological shifts and ideas. They are a little bit different I think.

To you it's all addictive voice. That's kind of extreme in my opinion. No offense!

I appreciate the well wishes and I wish you the same.

Terminally Unique

Quite obviously, it wasn't any 'one thing', since he pieced it together from the input of thousands of people who recovered. I have the Journal of Rational Recovery, which documents the development of AVRT, and you can literally see it taking form over the years. The JRR includes a lot of letters that were sent in with insights that were later incorporated into the body of knowledge now called AVRT.

I have read his writings on homosexuality, and some of the discussions on the subject that went on in the original RR BBS forum. Admittedly, some of it did make me bristle, but that is immaterial. AVRT does not prescribe what is wrong for others, only what is wrong for yourself, and only by your own judgement, not anyone else's. If you think that getting drunk, or being gay, is perfectly right for you, then that is that. For example, I could quite easily use AVRT to wall off the part of my thinking that is directed towards members of the same sex, but I see nothing wrong with it, so I don't.

Terminally Unique

You are free to use AVRT, or not, pentuate, and it does not concern me either way. At the moment, it appears that you are simply not interested in AVRT, and that is perfectly fine. This thread is devolving into character attacks, however, and I really am not interested in that. If you ever change your mind about using AVRT, and have legitimate questions about it after you actually read the Rational Recovery book, you know where to find me. I'll be glad to help then.

pentuate

I guess my point is that he pieced it together into a somewhat unique creation so it is in a sense original by his hand. Many people have quit on their own and wrote books and methods. None of the ones I've read are quite like his. I quit something on my own and I did not have a beast or thought my habit was immoral etc. So, as a unique method with a specific structure, he did invent it right?



This is the part that has me a little concerned. It's said that all thoughts etc that support the idea of drinking are the av of the "it" or "the beast" etc. But what if in reality they are not? What I mean is what if we are shutting off important parts of ourselves in the process of labeling all of this as beast and not engaging it? Should some urges be experienced in an integrated way instead of dismissed as not I? I don't know.

Some people might be ashamed of their sexuality, or in denial, feel it is evil etc even though it is who they are. They deny it, they hear religion protest it and are members etc. Now if that person used AVRT to "easily" change this, to wall it off, because they see something wrong with it, I'm not so sure that would be a healthy use of the method.

pentuate

Sorry about that. I was just responding to when you said that I am in the grip of the addictive voice which felt a little like a dismissal or attack.

Thanks for the conversation and If I read the book and have more questions I'll ask them.

DoubtfulDebs

nothing is bad about that.

nothing.

try aa or 12 step recovery methods, and get sober.

or, if they don't work, you will have answered this question FOR YOU.

it's really that simple.

jack t is a bit of a prat, but i don't care at all, would you care if the inventor of penicillin was a twit? stop looking for excuises to not invest in recovery, stop playing one method off against another, and just stop getting drunk.

GerandTwine

Yeah, ... but ... "stop getting drunk" for how long????

JUSS KIDDIN'

GT

DoubtfulDebs

lol next tuesday - it'll all be different then!!!

(cue death march...)

GerandTwine

Ya got me! Wha's hap'n'in on the 10th?

DoubtfulDebs

good thought! i'm gonna play with that one...