Oh, I think next Tuesday is a reference to another post you just made where you quoted TU where he had a list of questions to help recognize the AV as a "moving target".

"Does "seven more days of success" suggest that you haven't already succeeded?"

I'm sure this is a dead horse, and I'm new to the forum but...

I think "one day at a time" is being taken out of context. It has nothing to do with subliminally or subconsciously setting yourself up for relapse "one day, just not today." Its a practice of doing what addicts and alcoholics find impossible to do while they use: remain in the moment. We hold on to the past or gaze out into tomorrow completely missing today- you know, where reality is. We usually drink or drug today away, and we usually do it because of past hurts or future worries.

I see a lot of speaking for the "beast." The "beast" is your limbic region of the brain. The limbic region is the "caveman" part of your brain, the pleasure center. Its a completely different part of the brain than your logic center. Your limbic region could care less if you say you wont drink today or wont drink ever. Its one of the main reasons why addiction is a chronic illness that can wipe you out when you least expect it.

Well, we each have our own subjective experiences with time, no?

For myself, staying in the now was all to easy while drunk, and especially mixing with LSD, and grass, of course. Intoxicated, I cared selfishly and ego-centrically for the now moment in ways which made me very irresponsible, and yes, I did of course drink and drug my today away, but this did not necessarily require me to be preoccupied with either my past, or my possible futures, to totally trash my respective todays.

I can somewhat agree with the thinking of nursing past hurts, and future worries, while being stoned/drunk... the thing is though, once those conditions are satisfied, the now is open for the taking anyways. For me, it's always in the now whenever anyways, since even when travelling back to my selective past, or forward to a possible future, I'm still aware of my travelling the time continuum, and my awareness is always a now experience, and cannot be anything but a now experience.

One-day-at-a-time philosophy and practice of is a confining, redundant, shallow, regretful experience for me, speaking for myself. It has childish responsibilites, and creates childish expectations which are satisfied with childish results.

The past, the present, and all possible futures exist on the same common time continuum, and therefor, they are all equally responsive to any present awareness experienced in any moment on the common continuum....

Great post, RobbyRobot.

From a very recent thread in this Secular Connections forum:

Thanks, FredG!

Addiction itself is a one-day-at-a-time phenomenon, and addicted people are the foremost experts at remaining in the moment. They often live like creatures of the jungle, except between fixes instead of meals, with time circling around itself, one-day-at-a-time. To hell with the future or tomorrow, says the Beast. All that matters is that next fix, right now.

Rest assured that the Beast certainly does care, and knows perfectly well the difference between "just for today" and "never". This is why it recoils and goes ballistic when we attempt to make our Big Plan ("I will never drink/use again"), but remains eerily and conspicuously quiet if we say we won't drink 'just for today'.

Don't believe me?

Think to yourself, right now, “I will never drink again,” and mean it. Betcha can’t.

Well in the context of quantum physics yes, but in the context of linear western thought, it doesn't appear that way. ;)

When the high diminishes and the booze wears off, the moment vanishes and I'm left apologizing for what I did and terrified of what tomorrow will bring. So yeah, I totally agree we're experts on being in the moment as active addicts and alcoholics. The only problem is, we cant stay this way, or don't want to, and we seek help. So now the task is learning how to be in the moment sober and change the way we used to think as an addict or alcoholic; learning not to re-injure myself from the past or fear the future because ultimately those were the slices of bread in my addict way of living.



:a122:

Quantum physics, eh?

You'd likely be surprised how alive and well practiced quantum physics is in our western lives, you know?

In any case, awareness can only be experienced in the now, and no other realm exists for awareness to exist. It is not important what 'subjective time' awareness is being aware of, its always being aware in the now moment.

Am I your new play toy or something?

Well, not so much learn to be struggling with being in the moment, but more to accept there is no longer an intoxicated escape from the responsibility of living in the moment.

Changing how we think happens as a result of changing our actions. I cannot think my way into acting, I must in fact act to experience action. I can't think my way into a new way of thinking. While in action, my thinking and awareness work together to change my mind in real time.

No, not to me your not. Do you honestly feel you are?

You're being awfully critical of me Robby. Give the newbie a chance here, really. If I wanted my every word to be jumped on I would go to the JREF forum for Skeptics. I appreciate how you see things but why marginalize the way I see things?

I hear you, chrisepic. I'm not being critical of you personally, okay? If you feel I am, I offer apology for you having those feelings, sinced you've somehow sourced them to me jumping on you, okay?

You're making some very strict black-n-white statements which invite discussion in this thread, is all I'm being responsive too, you see?

You're not being marginalized, in my mind anyways. I respect your right to be yourself, and share as you so wish. Please appreciate my right to have a discussion without it sinking it personal whatevers, you know?

In any case, i do hear you, and I can be less direct, which is a new skill I'm learning, to be honest.

Thanks for being up front with me, chrisepic.

:thanks

Welcome to the forum, Chris, and thanks for engaging the gauntlet. I hope you will accept my comments in the spirit I intend. I see truth in this, Chris, that not using today is making that choice to stay present, achieving a sober state for the present moment. I agree with that. But it is also a refusal to make that forever statement. There is an unwillingness or inability to make that stand, once and for all. So, in that sense, it is acceptance of drinking at some time in the future.

You get the RR structural model of addiction just fine, the idea that leads so well to the concept of separation from the AV. It is part of me, but it is not me. But the beast is terrified of the idea of never drinking again, or never drinking in the present moment, because that will be the end of its delicious buzz. It screams loudly and otherwise just gets grumpy. It is this beast behaviour, following from the Big Plan to never drink again, that allows the beast to be identified and exposed.

It is the ability to recognize the beast that robs it of its power. AVRT makes it impossible for that beast to sneak up on you and convince you to make a mess once again. With this in mind, addiction does not need to be accepted as chronic, and it isn't an illness.

It seems to me, these ideas are contradictory to the essence of AVRT.

Okay. I'm listening. How so?

The foundation of AVRT is the thought process going on within one individual. Not a social action type of process with others.
So, I would say "Changing how we act happens as a result of changing our thoughts."

And, of course, "I think my way into acting". I can't imagine another way to do it.

The evolution from dependency to addiction to abstinence IS "thinking my way into a new way of thinking."

Okay, this is interesting. I love to work things out and have better understandings than I had before...

I agree AVRT is a singular process, and indeed not a social acting process with others. Not sure why you added that, but no matter, I agree.

I would say, speaking from my understanding of human evolution, first we did act, then we did think... This seems to make the most sense going forward. I don't see why such a wonderfully human practice has changed much over the eons.

Another way to move into action is to do so absolutely from energies sourced from our well of feelings, of which we have an abundance of, no?

Certainly I have created action, based on feelings, without a moments thought... I'm sure you have experienced something of the same?


>>>The evolution from dependency to addiction to abstinence IS "thinking my way into a new way of thinking."<<<

Well, the process from dependency to addiction to abstinence you have described is missing an essential element -- the use/abuse of alcohol and or drugs, experienced over a finite period of time, yeah?

Abusing alcohol/drugs requires a clearly physical action. So, how about this:

1. alcohol/drug use/abuse
2. dependancy
3. addiction
4. abstinence

Clearly again, first action, then thinking...

I believe it requires thoughts and not just feelings to commit an act.

I believe this is what many people call being "triggered" to act. I limit "triggers" for my actions to simple things like mistakenly putting my hand on a very hot stove. Even driving towards a street light turning yellow requires thoughts.

Of course someone must act by drinking a lot in order to become chemically dependent, but AVRT is not about becoming chemically dependent. It is about ending that dependency, and that requires absolutely no actions at all.

If someone were to get in a car accident as a result of their drinking and were laid up in the hospital in a body cast, they would still be perfectly capable of transitioning from alcohol dependency to addiction to abstinence while laying there motionless. This is why AVRT contradicts your belief that "I cannot think my way into a new way of thinking".

Robby and Gerand,
I an see how you are both right. Gerand, in a perfect world, we could think ourselves into a new way of thinking. In my case this was not so.

I am new to this so please bear with me...

When I decided to quit, it was pure thinking.
When I wanted to stay quit, it required action.
I joined SR. I asked questions. I found the AVRT threads. I PMed Kanamit.
I did the online courses. It took action to learn how to change my thinking.
This was an active process.
Does my not picking up a drink rely on any of this "action" anymore? No.
But it did help me get here.

Hmmm.

Well, we don't agree, that is clear enough. I'm unsure how to respond right now, inasmuch as I have no interest in even attempting in disproving your beliefs. Your statements present to me as somewhat subjective opinion, and less scientific then I expected. I'm less interested in what you may personally believe, and more interested in you explaining to me how your assertions are water-tight.

Its ironic how you've used an example of a guy in a body cast, as I have been in body casts, lasting over six months one stretch, heh.

I suppose I've not learned much so far from our discussion, and although I'm still listening, I'm unmoved by your original supposition that AVRT contradicts my beliefs.

I'm sure others will feel free to join our discussion. If there is something for me to learn, I'm more than interested. Not seeing it yet.

I'll have more to say soon enough...

:thanks

Well, the first act required to really quit would be in creating a Big Plan. This creation must originate before AVRT can be effective. Are you saying a Big Plan is nothing more than some collection of organised thoughts?

That would be like saying everything that is civilized in our society required no actions on our part to bring civilization into reality...

Yes. If you understand this, then we're on the same page about the Big Plan.

Yes, but. I have been thinking recently that if AVRT is practiced perfectly in all regards except without a Big Plan in place, a person could remain abstinent indefinitely on their own. I would have no interest in doing that, though. I rely on my Big Plan and don't worry about objectively separating from my AV perfectly at all times. I simply use the Big Plan to arrest the desire instead of the more deliberate process of identifying an entity other than me, in opposition to me, and within me.

Robby, you and I both quit decades ago. Until I started posting on SR, I found that the ironclad technique of both "objectively separating from IT" and also recalling my Big Plan had sort of rusted together in a unified clump of "I never drink." It's been so long, I cannot even remember the pleasure caused by drinking alcohol or smoking pot, so my AV has been relegated to acting as a rhetorical devils advocate. AVRT is still not difficult at all, but The Big Plan is what I really love. I do recognize how not remembering what the pleasure is like could be a Beast tactic to try to hit me broadside. No way. I think that could be why Dalek smoked ciggies again a few months ago.

If I had not joined SR six months ago to help addicted people understand AVRT and self-recovery, I would probably not have thought or dwelt upon drinking/toking for more than a few minutes total over these six months. Instead, I've spent many hours thinking about it in writing posts here. I also made a Big Plan for sweets last month, but I'm not sure whether being a member of SR made a difference in my doing that. In any case I'm enjoying posting on SR.

Not "everything that is civilized", but a huge portion of what "is civilized in our society" does require no action - it requires inhibition of various wants and desires. Parenting a child over many years to learn how to inhibit all kinds of behavior is a quick way to see how prevalent not-doing-something is in creating a stable society.

AVRT could not be practiced perfectly in all regards without the Big Plan in place. You would not have the separation between the Beast and yourself, or even a final decision. At best, you would have an unrefined, conditional AV recognition that we often see elsewhere, i.e., "my Beast wants me to drink/use, and I may agree with my Beast and actually drink/use, if not today, then perhaps tomorrow."

The Big Plan is the pivotal, defiant act of self-recovery, whereby we recognize that power other than ourselves that has been there all along (the Beast) for what it is and finally expel the rogue mentality that sustains it (the AV) from our self-consciousness. Without the Big Plan, the AV will still be seen as self, and heeded accordingly, depending on whim.

You can certainly recover via a Big Plan without AVRT or separation, i.e., "I want to drink, but I just don't drink, period." Many people do this. You cannot, however, have AVRT without a Big Plan. When the time comes, you'll just think "Oh, yes, my Beast wants to drink, and so do I. Who says I won't drink, anyway? I sure didn't say that! Bottoms up!"

Thanks for a thoughtful response, Gerand.

I've just returned from a welcomed night out with my wife and 17 yr old step-son. We enjoyed a hearty 16oz sirloin steak dinner, my wife a smaller cut. A great steak house old fashioned tavern like atmosphere, with all wood paneling, old english table n' chairs, dimmed lights, table candles, white-shirted waiters. Plenty of laughter and smiles all around. Coconut cream pie with drizzled caramel and coffee for dessert. Ice tea and lemonade. Sweeet!

I've been thinking about our discussion, and I'm thankful for our continuance.

I do understand it. Not to say I agree, but we now have some common ground. Cool.

There is much here for me to consider, thanks for that. I will say though now, without a Big Plan securely and unconditionally in place prior, AVRT cannot be practiced usefully because conditions would instantly exist which would serve up to the Beast an impunity against being recognised and seperated from AV thoughts, feelings, and actions. Without seperation, AV is not AV, and so the Beast wins the day, and eventually the desired reward is at least on the table for the taking. Not good, yeah?

I think you're splitting hairs over what constitutes "action". There's usually a lot of talk about "action" and "getting out of your head" to preemptively ward off the Beast (addictive desire) in other paradigms, which I suspect is why it caught GerandTwine's attention, but AVRT is not that type of action. AVRT is premised on the fact that you cannot actually drink/use without first thinking about drinking or using. You can therefore also not drink/use (ie, not act) if you recognize such thoughts as they arise.

Reading the Rational Recovery book, doing the exercises in the book, and learning about AVRT constitutes "action", and the Big Plan is certainly decisive action, but once AVRT is incorporated into one's thought process, there isn't much action going on outside our mind space. AVRT eventually becomes automatic, running in the background. Unless we consider the mental work required for recognition action, the word "action" does not really describe AVRT properly. In using AVRT, I spend a lot of time in my head, so to speak, not acting.

Is thinking action? It certainly uses up calories, and some mental work, such as solving a math problem in your head, probably uses up more calories than just thinking about the weather. I don't think neurons firing off is considered action in common usage, though.

Yeah, once the initial 'action', as embolded above is done, I completely agree AVRT is a normal experience in the psyche, and no futher 'action' is required to not pickup that drink. This does not speak to quality of life, which is a wholly different experience.

That was a rockin' post, Dalek. Thanks.

:)

For me I use the, "I will not drink today" as a goal to never drink again. In my mind I know that my ultimate goal is to never drink again though, as I am saying it. If I say "I will not drink today" leaving the possibility open to drink again, than it could turn into allowing myself to drink.

just how my mind work right now

Hope that makes sense.

Sorry, that post didn't fit in at the right time. I was responding to "the one day at a time," "I will never drink again" etc....posts.

This is certainly true, Robby, but one of the key insights of AVRT is that your addiction exists on its own, separate from all else. AVRT intentionally eschews bargain/payoff thinking as a matter of principle. To entangle quality of life with abstinence might be a recipe for disappointment, and making abstinence conditional on quality of life would actually be Addictive Voice. What if quality of life does not improve, even in an abstinent state?

Quite often, addicted people quit assuming that life will get better, and quite often, it gets worse before it gets better. They then reckon that since life did not get better right away, back to the stuff they shall go. AVRT says that to beat this rap, one had better abstain in spite of quality of life. Given your time off the bottle, I am certain you are aware that quality of life can go way down, even while not drinking/using, just as it can for any other non-drinker or non-user.

For reference, see "Illusion 12" on page 81 of Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction.

PS: Yes, I'm mindful that you said quality of life was a wholly different experience, which indicates you may already know all of this. I'm just clarifying the view through the lens of AVRT for general benefit. :)