I'm sorry if I came off as condescending, but I don't respond well to people who are selectively dismissive of scientific, especially if their dismissal appears to arise from a contradiction of the worldview.

Why would people be so dismissive of addiction medicine and not of psychiatry and neuroscience in general?

Paddy, I am not dismissive, but rather cautious and skeptical. The disease model personally prolonged my addiction. The worldview? Don't even get me started...
Consider this from Traleg Rinpoche: "...this whole idea of conforming to what everybody believes in, is a form of madness, a form of mental affliction." Of course I take into account what science says, but I have a disease? Sorry, not buyin...

btw, I enjoy a good discussion...was poking fun earlier. I should have used the ;)

Is alcohol addictive in the same sense that heroin or nicotine are?

Yes, and having been addicted to both alcohol and nicotine, I can say that the mechanism of addiction is very similar. Granted, alcohol has a very different withdrawal syndrome, and in my case, lasted much longer than with nicotine, but otherwise, there is not much difference.

That said, some people seem to have a defense that protects them from addiction to certain substances. I know people who can smoke cigarettes moderately, for example, whereas my body adapts to nicotine very quickly. I can't speak for heroin, but I do know that some people will say it is more addictive then alcohol, and vice versa.

Bottom line, though, the "most addictive substance" is the one you are addicted to, and the only substance that really matters is the one that does you in.

For me it was the opposite. Alcohol I can take or leave. It's just when I do take it I have a tendency to take to much. Nicotine is different. If I could have I would have had a dip of snuff in my mouth 24 - 7. Serious withdrawal and 15 years later my nicotine beast still talks to me. "It's not as bad as the booze you know", my response is to ignore it or tell it I will never dip again and I will never change my mind.

There's the old AV verb tense sneaking back in.
 

I think you mean when you DID take it, you TOOK too much.

You are going to call me on verb tenses every time aren't you?

:thanks

Hi Mike, I can't remember if I called you on it before. Anyway, when I see it, it screams at me. :fright:

Either you or TU did and that's good. It helps keep things right in my head. I sometimes get sloppy with that and there is no sense in even opening the door just a crack.

After reading RR I have thought about this as well. Maybe "disease" is the wrong term, but I can't help but wondering if there isn't something to some people being more disposed to having problems with alcohol. As in AVRT terms do some peoples "Beast" have stronger urges than others? The Beast is the mid-brain and could traits of the mid-brain be passed from generation to generation? In the end it doesn't really matter. It is my Beast and I have to deal with it.

No doubt different people have different reactions to particular drugs, alcohol included. This is no different than any other drug, though. Penicillin works great for most people, but if I get injected with that stuff, I'd be dead in minutes. Trimpey does touch on this somewhat in the book when he mentions that he can drink like a fish, whereas his wife can only have one or two before she starts getting sick. I suppose the question is, who is the abnormal one? The one who can keep on drinking, or the one who can't?

Classifying addiction as a disease in no way whatsoever absolves a person from managing said disease. If a person wants to drink or keep drinking, s/he will find any excuse or anything to blame in order to justify the decision to drink.

If the medical community is sending the message that continuing to drink is justifiable because alcoholism is a disease, yes, that would be incredibly irresponsible and medically unethical. Perhaps I've missed something, but I've never heard the message that medical science is saying that alcoholics have absolutely no control over whether or not alcoholics drink. I've also never heard the medical community assert that people with type 2 diabetes have absolutely no control over what kinds of food and how much type 2 diabetics consume.

The message I keep hearing from the medical community is for alcoholics to abstain. Moderation is not encouraged. Continued drinking is not encouraged.

Alcoholics can hold on to whatever excuses they like. I kept drinking for many 'reasons'. I'm happy. I'm sad. The sky is blue. Fill in any random or not so random excuse here: