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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 4

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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 4

Old 03-15-2012, 09:32 AM
  # 81 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
I have read a lot in here about people "fighting" with their beast. I'm not sure what AVRT says about that but to me the more you engage the greater the opportunity you are giving it. My approach is very much like the way I handle one of my grandchildren when throwing a tantrum. I smile, hopefully Buddha like, and then ignore it.
There are a couple exceptions, where we intentionally 'probe' the Beast, but AVRT is not a 'white knuckle' approach, and generally speaking, we don't engage the Addictive Voice. As you correctly note, doing so is counter-productive, and ultimately, of little use. The AV will play both sides of all arguments anyway, so regardless of what you say, the Beast will always land on its feet, so to speak. The only way to truly beat it is to not play into its hand, and to simply recognize, objectify, and passively observe.
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Old 03-16-2012, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
I agree, though while it is not as zealous as Al-Anon there is still a very strong 12 step and religious bias over there.

I have read a lot in here about people "fighting" with their beast. I'm not sure what AVRT says about that but to me the more you engage the greater the opportunity you are giving it. My approach is very much like the way I handle one of my grandchildren when throwing a tantrum. I smile, hopefully Buddha like, and then ignore it.

I have to admit with this break up with my wife that for the 1st time in 15 years I have had some cravings for snuff again. Not very often but it kind of surprised me the first time. My response is still "NEVER".

Your friend,
I like the analogy about the grandkids. I have adopted the strategy of smiling at aggressive drivers that want to flip me off because I'm either not fast enough or not running a red light so that they can get where they are going faster. They get so perplexed when you just smile at them as they want to scream at you from the safety of their automobiles.

I have been doing this for a few years and never related it to ignoring and noticing the AV instead of trying to fight back. Good insight!
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:20 PM
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TU you deserve a metal for your stalwart dedication to these threads and this forum. I'm so glad someone was here to give me the info you gave me when I first started looking for alternatives to that other program.

The reason I can't believe you are still around here is because, at least in my own case, once I started getting AVRT it was pretty easy to quit. I never really feel like I NEED to come here and I doubt you do either. It has to be a very generous heart that keeps you coming back and helping people.

I'm halfway through a situation that I never thought I would be able to conquer and keep from drinking. St. Pat's weekend and no family! Much thanks to you...
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:50 PM
  # 84 (permalink)  
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UofI,

While I appreciate the sentiments, since they are a nice alternative to the 'hate mail' I receive (or should that be Beast mail? ), you need not thank me. Be sure to take full credit for your own successes, because no one else is likely to take the blame for your failures. That said, society is in grave need of examples of self-recovered people, and also of information on the availability of a viable method for self-recovery via planned, permanent, abstinence (ie, AVRT). So long as you live your life as you see fit, and let anyone who is stuck on the horns of the Beast know about the existence of AVRT, you will have repaid me in full as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:50 AM
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I stopped drinking five or six weeks ago. I took the approach as with my cessation of smoking, way back, which was: "I will never smoke again, so dont feed the craving monster with my attention and it will shrink down to a mouse. Starve the craving."

If, when I had stopped smoking, I had substituted that with going to daily meetings with bunches of other smokers, telling their smoking stories, and coddling each other again and again when they each decide to go back on their public committment to quit, I would be feeding the smoking monster and she would be dancing with glee. Right?

So why do people do that with drinking?

Anyway this was my thinking when I stopped drinking. Then what happens? I am successfully not drinking, ( tho it is hard for sure early on and scary), and everyone around me is saying I better go to "meetings" or I will fail, I better not think I can just do this solely relying on my will.

I am thinking what the heck? I drank with my will, I drank cause I liked it, so I can quit with my will.

No, say others. You are in denial. What? No one said I was in denial when I quit smoking and made that known... Hmmnn...

So then on SR, what do I discover but AVRT and RR!!

I had been reading early on about the reptilian brain, and reading how to strengthen my self discipline. I was trying to put these things together to help myself, but couldnt quite concieve it.. and then, voila! Here it is!

I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind. Next question?
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:52 AM
  # 86 (permalink)  
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PS: I have found my support group here in my monthly class.very helpful. But Id noticed I was feeling compulsive and addictive.like toward it, and that made me uneasy. Now I understand why.
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:23 AM
  # 87 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by EternalQ View Post
I have found my support group here in my monthly class. very helpful. But I'd noticed I was feeling compulsive and addictive.like toward it, and that made me uneasy. Now I understand why.
AVRT will necessarily expose the dual implications of ideas which, at first glance, seem innocuous, but which, upon closer inspection, fit the definition of Addictive Voice. It cannot be otherwise. The Addictive Voice "any thinking, imagery, or feeling that supports or suggests the possible future use of alcohol or drugs -- ever" is heard loud and clear in the recovery ecosystem.

Indeed, the Addictive Voice is often amplified and projected from thence, much as a human voice is amplified and projected from a megaphone. The implicit, of not explicit embrace of the cardinal rule of addiction itself "never say never to the possible future use of alcohol and other drugs" is a prime example of this.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:06 PM
  # 88 (permalink)  
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Do you need to practice AVRT?

I posted this in another thread, but thought it important to re-post here, since the idea that one has to practice AVRT is a common thought after making one's Big Plan, which InsertNameHere has already done. It is a subtle form of Addictive Voice, because it suggests that one needs practice in order to not drink again, as if the Big Plan were an experiment, which it is not. I previously touched on this 'trying it out' theme here as well:

Trying out AVRT :

TU

Originally Posted by InsertNameHere View Post
The only concern (and not much at that) is that where I am going to be living is going to have a fully stocked bar at al times.
Is it you that is concerned, or your Beast that is concerned? If you aren't going to drink again, why should you be concerned? Remember, you Beast will be very concerned about future drinking opportunities, because it knows that you aren't firing blanks anymore. It knows that you are perfectly capable of not feeding it that next drink, and that it will have to sit there and squirm while watching all the other little Beasties partying it up.

Originally Posted by InsertNameHere View Post
I say that is a concern but at the same time I am looking forward to it a little as it will be a good opportunity for me to get a Really good base for practising AVRT before I go back to the states where the $hit is everywhere.
Do you need to practice AVRT in order to abstain from now on? If you don't practice AVRT, does that mean you will drink again? Remember, all self-doubt is addictive voice. Set your confidence level for lifetime abstinence arbitrarily at 100%. If it drops, even a fraction of a percent, you are hearing your addictive voice. I would also add that any fear, uncertainty, or doubt (FUD) is usually addictive voice as well. AVRT is a no fear, no uncertainty, and no doubt approach there are no 'triggers' or 'slippery places' with AVRT.

Henceforth, AVRT will be mostly passive, because your Beast will always make the first move. Whether it does or not should not concern you, however. Your job is simply to stand guard to your stream of consciousness, and recognize any thinking or feeling that supports, or suggests, the remote possibility that you might drink, ever. Alcohol is the most conspicuous substance in the universe for you, though, so this won't be difficult at all. It's like spotting yellow tennis balls coming down a conveyor belt with white ping pong balls.


PS:

If you want to read the few posts leading up to his Big Plan, which might also be instructive, since they also touch on 'practicing', you can find a link to them below. There is also a post on "purposeful suffering" further down, which is also common.
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Old 03-20-2012, 08:20 PM
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Territory - The Beast's Map of IT's Stuff

The Beast has a strong sense of territory. If you're addicted, it can be felt like a strong and heavy canine on a leash, pulling you towards places IT's stuff can be acquired, barking, whining, and panting all the way until that wonderful pleasure is regained. All Beasts have territories, territoriality is a part of survival. Beasts have to be good at getting their stuff to survive, or they whither away.

With AVRT YOU learn IT is a quadriplegic. IT immediately knows you know, so, IT can't make you fall for ITs pulling you on a leash any more. The AV will then resort to more subtle and diverse tactics to get you to reverse your intent to quit until you make your Big Plan. After you make your Big Plan, the AV will still try to keep the map of IT's territory in the forefront of your mind, even though that map has now become completely obsolete to YOU. It can be a map of both space and time, such as weekends, happy hour, vacations, etc. It sees through your eyes, and knows all your thoughts, and IT knows where and when you will be or can be close to IT's stuff.

Once you decided drinking was wrong for you, IT had to get YOU to seek out and obtain IT's stuff. Once YOU know the importance of IT's map of IT's territory, you can use that to simply enhance your AVRT. This doesn't mean you are in trouble if you get near IT's stuff, or that you even have to use this territorial perspective. That would be just more AV. Also, IT's map can naturally overlap with places and times important to YOU. Even if you're an addicted bartender and your spouse drinks at home, I think the map can still give a perspective.

I also think the territorial perspective shows the huge AV lie about the great importance of this mental map and that you have to go to those spots and times, and drink to prevent boredom, loneliness, depression, you name it.

Comparing the Beast's map to YOUR map of YOUR life isn't at all related to using AVRT, but I think the comparison is interesting. While there can be overlap, the map of important places in a human being's life can literally be thousands of times more full of variety than the Beast's. This is notwithstanding the billions of dollars spent in our society to glorify the Beast of booze's (and gambling's) territory.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:34 AM
  # 90 (permalink)  
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Thanks again Terminally Unique for sharing all of this information. Since yesterday I have gone through every link that you provided, and have read through the entire thread. Will be ordering the book today.

After reading the information, I know this will work. Total permanent abstinence was my goal already, and this is the only "system" that has that goal in mind.

What strikes me about AVRT is its simplicity and its perfection. Once I have disassociated myself from my desire to drink (and name It), there is simply no way for the Beast to get out of its cage unless I let it out! There are NO loopholes! Any argument otherwise IS the Beast by definition.

I guess that the hardest part now is recognizing the Beast's different disguises. I am looking forward to the book.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:16 AM
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TU, I finally ordered the book. I have not had any urges to drink at all. Very little noise from the AV. Yet, I know I need to read the entire thing to see the big picture.
I've been happy living my life. Not "working" on recovery. Just am. I do get some satisfaction from "encouraging" newcomers.
Do you think this is a bad/ good/ neutral thing.?

It seems like being recovered w/AVRT, you don't need to. But I feel like I'm free & would like to share my enlightenment w/ others so they don't have to fight & work so hard for something that is so easy.
I know one size does not fit all & some people need to work programs. More power to them IF that makes them happy.
I'd rather be done & get on w/my life. I wasted enough time drinking, I'm living now.
Thanks for your dedication to this.

I'll let you know what I think after I finish reading.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:20 AM
  # 92 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Purplecatlover View Post
TU, I finally ordered the book. I have not had any urges to drink at all. Very little noise from the AV. Yet, I know I need to read the entire thing to see the big picture.
This is normal after a while -- it seems to get weaker the more you purge it from your consciousness. In my case, I do still hear the AV sometimes, but not very often. I sometimes probe the Beast and ask it why I should have a drink or smoke a cigarette, and it doesn't even answer anymore. Just remember, though, that in AVRT, we assume the Beast will never really die, and it is neither good nor bad to have AV activity. Likewise, it is neither good nor bad to not have AV activity. It is assumed that you will be able to recognize it if and when it does occur.

Originally Posted by Purplecatlover View Post
I've been happy living my life. Not "working" on recovery. Just am.
That's the whole point of AVRT -- to get on with the business of living.

Originally Posted by Purplecatlover View Post
I do get some satisfaction from "encouraging" newcomers. Do you think this is a bad/ good/ neutral thing.?

It seems like being recovered w/AVRT, you don't need to. But I feel like I'm free & would like to share my enlightenment w/ others so they don't have to fight & work so hard for something that is so easy.
AVRT has no built-in mandate to spread the word, as is the case with 12-Step programs. Then again, neither does it have any prohibition on doing so, as long as you don't charge money for it or offer AVRT as a professional service. In other words, discussion like we do here is fine, but 'private coaching' for profit, or as part of an addiction treatment program, will get you in trouble with RR right quick.

Most people just move on, and on the RR forums, this is actually encouraged. They tell you not to hang around longer than necessary, and when your subscription ends, you don't get a notice telling you to re-subscribe. It's more of a "have a nice life" mentality. Some people nevertheless do feel compelled to 'share their enlightenment', as you put it, though. It's entirely up to you, and I won't press you either way.

Originally Posted by Purplecatlover View Post
I'll let you know what I think after I finish reading.
Please do. One of the benefits of a forum setting is that posts are archived for anyone who may come along later. I learned quite a bit from the RR forums just by reading thousands of archived posts from over the years.
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:22 PM
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Does anyone know anybody that has read all of RR & went back to the AA 12 steps?
Did they give any reasons?

I'm just curious. I don't feel like I fit in any category. As I've said before, I understand why people would use the 12 steps to help themselves deal with issues in life in general but, there is so much more freedom in AVRT.

Alcohol has already imprisoned me for yrs.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:13 PM
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I take that back, I feel like I belong in the "self recovered" category but I dont want to sound pompous. Since I have not committed to anything other than not ever drinking again. Maybe I just need to make that statement, Big Plan.

I'll read the book to get the finalization done.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:55 PM
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Just finished the book....

Hey everyone...on day 5 of not drinking (I know I don't need to count because never is never, but it's still exciting to think about). I just finished reading RR - the new cure...great depth, more than just the website "quick start" points. Make sure you read chapter 19, although it says it's for Professionals in the post-treatment era, it gives a full dialogue of a first session with someone being introduced to AVRT...very powerful stuff! I know I shouldn't be surprised about the ease to which you can stop drinking, but I am. I know it's early but I have had few thoughts or av moments (did have one last night , talked about it on another post). I knew that I had the power to control my actions last month when I was out of town with my daughters team and didn't want to be seen drinking by the other parents and girls...so I didn't drink for 5 days...just that easy. Of course I celebrated my newfound control by drinking as much as ever for the next 2 weeks, then wrapped my brain around AVRT, started to recognize the beast and have never been happier! Read the book! Work it out in your head..it is very "RATIONAL"
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Purplecatlover View Post
Does anyone know anybody that has read all of RR & went back to the AA 12 steps?
Some people will always flock to AA or other recovery groups, and never leave, regardless of what they read. I read the "objections" published in the Journal of Rational Recovery from when RR shut down their meetings, and some people were very unhappy about it. They didn't want to lose their 'recovery home' or stop going to meetings. Conversely, other people were very happy about the development of AVRT sans meetings.
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Old 03-24-2012, 07:00 PM
  # 97 (permalink)  
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How wrong is wrong?

One of the prime functions of the Addictive Voice is to deny the moral dimension of self-intoxication. See this post for reference:

This can be heard loud and clear when people say "addiction is not a moral issue!" Since the Addictive Voice itself will necessarily subvert morality, and try to convince the addicted person that there is nothing wrong with getting high, nothing wrong at all, so long as nobody gets hurt, and even then, only after all the facts are in, AVRT says "Yes, it is indeed a moral issue!" In AVRT, the act of using, in and of itself, is wrong, in the moral sense. Since using is wrong, the AV, which supports using, can be thought of as an immoral proposition. One of the questions raised in The Art of AVRT is this: "just how wrong is it?"

People sometimes ask me how I can know that I will never drink again, and I tell them that it is wrong for me to do so. Now, this does not mean that I believe it is wrong for others to drink, and unless they are harming others by drinking, I actually don't. As for myself, however, I am very clear in my own thinking about it being 100% wrong. I know this because I have done it before, and can speak from experience. Recall that the Big Plan has five words ("I will never drink again"). That 'again' word is key, and implies that I have come to this conclusion myself, on account of my own experience, not anyone else's experience, nor anyone else's moral code.

Knowing that drinking is 100% wrong for me not only makes AV recognition effortless, but it also allows me to be perfectly confident that I won't ever drink again. How can I know this? Because I have concluded that drinking (or using) are, for me, the most immoral acts of all, worse than murder. That might seem a little extreme, but I know, for example, that if someone put a gun to my head and told me to kill someone else, I would tell them to go ahead and shoot me. OTOH, if I were drunk, and someone put a gun to my head and told me to do that, I might certainly consider it, and depending on just how drunk I was, I can't be certain that I wouldn't actually do it.

The key insight is that alcohol (or drugs) disable my moral judgment, which makes drinking, in and of itself, immoral. It also makes drinking more immoral than all of the consequences that might arise from drinking. Putting drinking at the top of the list of immoral things that I know I will never do is what allows me to maintain perfect confidence that I won't ever do it. To be sure, doing this does require a certain level of introspection, and a reorganization of one's priorities, but it is an extremely powerful insight. I am, in fact, incapable of not recognizing the AV, or of voluntarily drinking. On that note, here are two questions to consider:

  1. Given your own past experience with drinking, is it right or wrong for you to drink?

  2. If it is wrong for you to drink, just how wrong is it?


PS: "Drinking" and "using" are synonymous.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:41 AM
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Very good points.
I have to say when I was drinking I was a liar. Lied to my husband, his alcohol, etc. And I despise liars & lying. But I did whatever it took to get my alcohol.
It caused me to do a ton of things I would have never done sober.
So drinking is absolutely wrong for me. VERY wrong. It is pure evil to me.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:56 AM
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Can you ever forget your Big Plan?

As an addendum to my previous post, I'd like to touch on another subject. Pain is often not remembered well, but pleasure certainly is, which is why addictions tend to be so persistent. On pages 122-123 of Rational Recovery: The New Cure, there is a section titled "Why Can't I Remember the Pain?", which touches on this phenomenon.

In the early months after making my Big Plan, I was still able to readily recall the pain of active addiction, but as time went on, this became more difficult to do. I can certainly remember that it felt bad, hopeless, etc, and I can recall some losses, but the actual pain itself not so much. On the one hand, this is good, but it also means that I have forgotten somewhat why I quit in the first place. In AVRT, though, it is not necessary to constantly re-hash the misery of the past, to think through the drink, to remember your last drunk, or to do a cost-benefit analysis every time you see a beer.

The Big Plan can replace any and all original reasons for quitting, and we can let the sands of time wash over and bury our addiction. Of course, this means that we actually have to remember that we made a Big Plan, and this is where the moral imperative aspect is also useful. I may not remember all of my original reasons for making my Big Plan, or all the feelings that led up to it, but I do know that I made it for good reasons, and that I was in my right mind at the time. Internalizing it as a moral imperative ensures that I won't forget it, and that what others think about it is irrelevant.

So, for your consideration:
Can you ever forget your Big Plan?
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:23 AM
  # 100 (permalink)  
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TU, can AVRT be used for eating disorder? I've yet to receive my book
I am not a food addict but have unhealthy ideas about eating.... Obsession w/staying thin. Just curious if this falls into an addictive category.
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