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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 4

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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 4

Old 07-11-2012, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Saskia View Post
Dalek, I am still digesting your comments/questions and became aware of the fact that I had previously said that I had absolutely no cravings for cigarettes once I got past the hard part. That is not true, lol!
This has been covered before, but what I was getting at, without actually stating it, is that AVRT is not about removing the desire to use, and that that the presence or absence of desire is irrelevant in this paradigm. As you've concluded, desire is neither good nor bad, and we abstain regardless of desire or AV activity.

In fact, the statement "I have no desire to use" is actually Addictive Voice, because it suggests that there is no Beast, or that the absence of desire makes abstinence more likely. That, of course, necessarily implies that the presence of desire makes abstinence less likely, thereby suggesting the possible the future use of the substance, which, by definition, is AV.

AVRT identifies even wanting the desire to be removed as AV, because it suggests self-doubt about abstinence in the presence of desire. Those who have been exposed to other addiction treatment programs usually find this surprising, but since addictive desire (the Beast) can return at any time, it is actually useful not to depend on it "going away", and with AVRT, we assume that the Beast never really dies or goes away.
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Saskia View Post
My husband quit smoking using some medication from the doctor. Maybe you could try that or patches etc as well as AVRT to help you through.
Do not use patches, gum, or other nicotine replacement "therapies" with AVRT. They are nothing but alternate delivery systems for the very drug you are trying to quit, which just keeps the Beast fed. Nicotine replacement therapy is no different than switching from whiskey to beer or an alcohol IV drip. Not only will you not have abstained even for a single minute with such devices, but you will not be able to recognize your Addictive Voice as long as the Beast is well fed.
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dalek View Post
Do not use patches, gum, or other nicotine replacement "therapies" with AVRT. They are nothing but alternate delivery systems for the very drug you are trying to quit, which just keeps the Beast fed. Nicotine replacement therapy is no different than switching from whiskey to beer or an alcohol IV drip. Not only will you not have abstained even for a single minute with such devices, but you will not be able to recognize your Addictive Voice as long as the Beast is well fed.
Dalek, I didn't post that comment!
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Saskia View Post
Dalek, I didn't post that comment!
Whoops! Still getting the hang of this forum.

You are right, that was Aussie. Sorry!
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by imaquitter View Post
Everybody can stop drinking for a while but most of them go crazy when told to put out the cigs so I'll just have to build it up more to do that.
Ever notice that smokers don't really "go crazy" when they are on an inter-continental plane ride, even though they can't smoke, until the captain announces that they are about to land, and they start anticipating that next cigarette outside the terminal? Most smokers smoke about once every hour, certainly once every three hours, but even on a ten or twelve hour plane ride, they are just fine as long as the plane is in the air, when their Beast knows it can't and won't be having any cigarettes.

As soon as it gets close to landing time, though, the Beast starts salivating, and they start getting antsy. This is because it takes the anticipation of gratification of desire to cause 'cravings'. If you come down on the Beast like a ton of bricks, with a solid Big Plan, and you know that you absolutely won't be having any cigarettes, then you won't have to worry about the anticipation of gratifying that desire. Picture putting the Beast on a plane ride that never lands and you'll get the idea.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by imaquitter View Post
I was in the Navy for 20 years until 2010. I always knew I could go for weeks without drinking because we can't drink on a ship...
See my previous post on the anticipation of gratification of desire. You have no problem abstaining while on a ship because you know that you won't be having any drinks. This is what the Big Plan, when properly executed, does -- it removes that anticipation. Picture putting your Beast on a Navy ship that will never dock again.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:42 PM
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So speaking of smoking, I have a question for you Dalek, about why you relapsed. You said some weeks ago you didn't know whether you had failed to really commit from the get-go, or had reversed a previously solid commitment. Any thoughts on that?

Not judging or trying to put you on the spot; I relapsed on smokes multiple times, even after years of abstinence. If I see a novice skier fall, my reaction is sympathy. But if I see a much better skier than myself go down, self-interest kicks in, and makes me want to know exactly what went wrong...
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Old 07-11-2012, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Aussiebutterfly View Post
I had to wait a few weeks for my copy of the book imaquitter so order it as soon as you can. It's worth having around. You may even get one second hand of ebay or somewhere.

My husband quit smoking using some medication from the doctor. Maybe you could try that or patches etc as well as AVRT to help you through.
I went to Barnes and Noble today and couldn't find it there but there weren't a whole lot of books to choose from. I laughed when I saw one book that claimed that it was able to help addicts drink moderately. Also there were several AAish books and some other step books that I wasn't interested in. I ended up buying a David Carr book and I'll get the AVRT book off Amazon.

I know of the medication from the doctors. If it was in the past few years it was probably Chantix and I took that for months before and never quit. Then I went in a 2nd time and took it for a week when I was out to sea and hadn't been drinking for a month and that stuff just gives you weird dreams so I quit on my own. Then later started smoking again while drinking, of course.
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Old 07-11-2012, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Dalek View Post
See my previous post on the anticipation of gratification of desire. You have no problem abstaining while on a ship because you know that you won't be having any drinks. This is what the Big Plan, when properly executed, does -- it removes that anticipation. Picture putting your Beast on a Navy ship that will never dock again.
Yes thats true and I know a lot of very bad drunks do just fine for weeks without drinking, then 30 minutes after we get somewhere they are already wasted. Sometimes I was among them.

I do remember a few times getting off the airplane as well when I paused before lighting my cigarette knowing that I could quit right then, but of course I still lit it anyway. The urge to smoke isn't as bad as it seems when you stop and observe so I know I can stop soon.
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Old 07-11-2012, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
So speaking of smoking, I have a question for you Dalek, about why you relapsed. You said some weeks ago you didn't know whether you had failed to really commit from the get-go, or had reversed a previously solid commitment. Any thoughts on that?
For me I was drinking and thought I had the smoking habit beat. I smoked while drinking a few times, then the next day didn't smoke. I didn't even want to smoke. I was always being asked to go smoking with co workers because they knew I had quit so finally one day I accepted and then started smoking more and more again until I was buying my own again.

It was really frustrating too because I really had no cravings and hated the smell by then too, and I had smoked for over 20 years. It wasn't hard after the first 3-4 days of not smoking.
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Old 07-11-2012, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Dalek View Post

In fact, the statement "I have no desire to use" is actually Addictive Voice, because it suggests that there is no Beast, or that the absence of desire makes abstinence more likely. That, of course, necessarily implies that the presence of desire makes abstinence less likely, thereby suggesting the possible the future use of the substance, which, by definition, is AV.
Dalek (and yes, I still remember the Daleks from Dr Who) I'm not so sure I agree with that statement. I don't believe that the absence of desire makes abstinence more likely" or the converse. I believe that some of us have had experiences that enable us to put cravings in their appropriate perspective. Awareness that things can still change is a necessary ingredient
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Old 07-11-2012, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Dalek View Post
In fact, the statement "I have no desire to use" is actually Addictive Voice, because it suggests that there is no Beast, or that the absence of desire makes abstinence more likely. That, of course, necessarily implies that the presence of desire makes abstinence less likely, thereby suggesting the possible the future use of the substance, which, by definition, is AV.

AVRT identifies even wanting the desire to be removed as AV, because it suggests self-doubt about abstinence in the presence of desire. Those who have been exposed to other addiction treatment programs usually find this surprising, but since addictive desire (the Beast) can return at any time, it is actually useful not to depend on it "going away", and with AVRT, we assume that the Beast never really dies or goes away.
Yeah, this is all excellent AVRT. Thanks, Dalek.


Originally Posted by Saskia
Dalek (and yes, I still remember the Daleks from Dr Who) I'm not so sure I agree with that statement. I don't believe that the absence of desire makes abstinence more likely" or the converse. I believe that some of us have had experiences that enable us to put cravings in their appropriate perspective. Awareness that things can still change is a necessary ingredient
It's not so much moment to moment the absence of (addictive) desire which is AV, its a want for the absence of (addictive) desire to be a preferred state, or otherwise, the complete permanent removal of (addictive) desire is AV.

The Beast is a unhealthy adaption of desire, an addictive desire to alcohol, and since natural desire is sourced from our animal mid-brain, it really can't be removed, and there exists no practical "off button."

As we use AVRT to recognise each manifestation of AV, the Beast (addictive desire) weakens its use of AV, and this allows us to become stronger in our resolve to live in abstinence. As we continue, eventually our AV becomes a routine expected experience, we become experts in recognition of AV in ourselves, and others, and what's there not to love, lol.

So yeah, simply not having addictive desire in any present moment is not itself AV, but certainly a desire to have no addictive desire is AV.
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:47 AM
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Last night I was hearing a voice tell me how great it would be to have a beer. I told it to bring me one too. Needless to say, I didn't drink at all. :rotfxko

I can't stand the taste of it anyway so no big loss.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post

So yeah, simply not having addictive desire in any present moment is not itself AV, but certainly a desire to have no addictive desire is AV.
Robby - that's a very helpful distinction!
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
It's not so much moment to moment the absence of (addictive) desire which is AV, its a want for the absence of (addictive) desire to be a preferred state, or otherwise, the complete permanent removal of (addictive) desire is AV.
Yes! Excellent clarification, Robby.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
As we use AVRT to recognise each manifestation of AV, the Beast (addictive desire) weakens its use of AV, and this allows us to become stronger in our resolve to live in abstinence.
Do you see the uncertainty implicit in the text I highlighted? What if the Beast doesn't weaken? Would that affect your Big Plan and your resolve to abstain under all conditions?

We may certainly work up our resolve to make the Big Plan, but once made, the Big Plan is the ultimate resolve. It is unconditional, defiant, and final, and is not dependent on the strength or frequency of AV activity. Our threshold of confidence for lifetime abstinence is set arbitrarily to 100%, and any thinking that suggests otherwise, such as the idea that the Big Plan needs additional fortification over time, is AV.
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Old 07-12-2012, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
As we use AVRT to recognise each manifestation of AV, the Beast (addictive desire) weakens its use of AV, and this allows us to become stronger in our resolve to live in abstinence. As we continue, eventually our AV becomes a routine expected experience, we become experts in recognition of AV in ourselves, and others, and what's there not to love, lol.
Originally Posted by Dalek
Do you see the uncertainty implicit in the text I highlighted? What if the Beast doesn't weaken? Would that affect your Big Plan and your resolve to abstain under all conditions?
I'm open to the idea of uncertainty being implied within my text. I'm not sure 'what if' questions are always required, on every level, to discover how the Beast can trip us up, however. Not to say inquiries are not valuable, and upon investigation, most often their use does drag my Beast out of hiding and into a deeper awareness. As I already know, the Beast can only use my own thoughts against me as AV, and my feelings of desire, but nothing original can be created by the Beast. With this in mind, I'm not concerned with AV activity, because my Beast can never be stronger then the last alcoholic drink it ever had, (haha more potential AV!?) and since it will never get another alcoholic drink, I have no need to panic or otherwise be concerned about my Big Plan, which cannot fail within itself.

As well, I did say weaken its use of AV, and not the Beast itself becomes weaker. To me, such a distinction is correct. This does not imply yet another condition, imo, has I'm speaking from experience, and not from wishful, hopeful, expectations of the Beast being anything other then the Beast, same as I originally discovered.

So to answer, yes, if supposing my Beast did not weaken, I would have then embraced a potential condition to my Big Plan. Not good. I would then begin to experience addictive ambivalence, which would require additional upgrading of my AVRT. My Big Plan would remain unchanged, of course.


Originally Posted by Dalek
We may certainly work up our resolve to make the Big Plan, but once made, the Big Plan is the ultimate resolve. It is unconditional, defiant, and final, and is not dependent on the strength or frequency of AV activity. Our threshold of confidence for lifetime abstinence is set arbitrarily to 100%, and any thinking that suggests otherwise, such as the idea that the Big Plan needs additional fortification over time, is AV.
I agree with all of the above quote, Dalek. Awesome.

I would add though, I'm not a myself a Big Plan incarnate. I'm flesh and blood and feelings/emotions and psyche. Having resolve, and feeling resolve are not the same experience, imo. Having the concept of resolve is an intellectual thing, and feeling resolve speaks for itself, yeah? I like to feel my resolve too, and so having it challenged is way cool, speaking for myself.

Its like this:

I can't always get from here to there without some scrapes and bruises along the way, and so, these become the backdrop for more important endevours and adventures moving me forward on my journey. I do take time to smell the roses, and sometimes a thorn makes itself felt amongst all the beauty enjoyed. No problemo.

I'm a practical man, and I don't sweat the routine ups and downs of my often surreal existence. Thanks for your insight, Dalek. I admire your expert, informed, and timely attention to detail.

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Old 07-12-2012, 10:57 AM
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Good stuff here today—as usual!
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Old 07-12-2012, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by imaquitter View Post
I do remember a few times getting off the airplane as well when I paused before lighting my cigarette knowing that I could quit right then, but of course I still lit it anyway. The urge to smoke isn't as bad as it seems when you stop and observe so I know I can stop soon.
Do you see that your Beast is attacking here? You say that you know you can quit, and that quitting isn't really as bad as it seems, and the Beast then says "yes, you could quit, but not just yet -- do it later." If you can't quite see this, try defining what "soon" means. When is soon?

Once you start catching on to its shenanigans, the Beast will try to put off quitting, but the AVRT concept of static time can help you get over this little speed bump. The Beast will play on the idea that then is different than now, but we know that when then actually comes, it will still be now.

Therefore, it will never be any easier or any more difficult to quit than right now.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Saskia View Post
I don't believe that the absence of desire makes abstinence more likely" or the converse.
Are you sure about that? It is subtle, but your statements below suggest that only after the bad 'cravings' are over will it become easier to abstain. In other words, that abstinence will be easier, and therefore more likely, in the absence of 'cravings' (desire).

Originally Posted by Saskia
My experience when I didn't drink for 14years was that, after the worst of the cravings were over, like with smoking I could banish those thoughts.
Originally Posted by Saskia
I don't see the presence or absence of desire as being "good" or "bad". It is what it is and after I'm past the worst, I know it will become easier to manage with time.
You also need to bear in mind that the Beast is the desire to use, and vice versa. What you said below essentially translates to "I no longer have a Beast -- it has gone away."

Originally Posted by Saskia
I quit smoking almost 30 years ago. I used similar constructs and after a few months have had absolutely no cravings or interest in ever smoking again.
One of the prime functions of the Addictive Voice is to conceal its existence, and by extension, the existence of the Beast. I can think of no bigger concealment than "I have absolutely no cravings/interest/desire" (ie, no Beast).

Originally Posted by Saskia
I believe that some of us have had experiences that enable us to put cravings in their appropriate perspective. Awareness that things can still change is a necessary ingredient.
The Beast (the desire) may temporarily lie dormant, and we may certainly have periods -- even extended periods -- of no Beast activity, but the Beast is immutable. Once born, it is a permanent, biological script error, and it doesn't just go away, no matter how much time passes since its last fix. Your experience with drinking again, even after 14 years of abstinence from alcohol, should give you an appropriate perspective regarding this, no?
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Old 07-12-2012, 10:35 PM
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I like this train, and think I'll hop aboard to play devil's advocate... or is it the beast's?

So here's the deal. I am super stoked that I rarely feel cravings anymore. Cravings suck. (Ha—I said it.) Do they suck bad enough that I'll tear up the Big Plan, and go back to drinking? Hell no. There ain't a craving big enough to knock me off my game. The Beast is like a monkey in a cage, tossing its own crap at me. Will it defeat me? No... but at the same time, I'd rather not get hit. I just bought this shirt.

Here's another, less disgusting analogy: It is easier for me to type this reply on my laptop than on my phone. Now, would it be fair to take that statement, and suggest that I am in any way saying I am less capable of posting with my phone? I don't think it would be.

Just don't ask me to prove it. I really hate typing on that thing!
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