Go Back  SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information > Secular Recovery > Secular Connections
Reload this Page >

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 4

Blogs


Notices

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 4

Old 07-02-2012, 10:17 PM
  # 401 (permalink)  
Recovered with AVRT
 
Aussiebutterfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Queensland Australia
Posts: 86
No idea about stuff like that. Maybe contact the mods or Jack Trimpey?
Aussiebutterfly is offline  
Old 07-03-2012, 08:48 AM
  # 402 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,450
I have a question that needs to be answered. I have an iphone app and an ipad app named Addictive Voice Emergeny Reality Training (AVERT) I am woundering if I violated any copy right issues. If I did I am sorry and I will change it.
That's between the app developers, Apple, Rational Recovery, and all of their lawyers. It's not the responsibility of consumers to investigate copyright issues of lawfully purchased products.

Your job is to not drink.
ReadyAndAble is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to ReadyAndAble For This Useful Post:
Aussiebutterfly (07-03-2012)
Old 07-03-2012, 09:00 AM
  # 403 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,450
I would note that the app has nothing to with the AVRT discussed here. "AVERT" appears to be a mish-mash of well-worn recoveryisms, from the serenity prayer to playing the tape forward.

I bet RR sics lawyers after them soon—the app has been out less than a month—but again, that has nothing to do with you or anyone else who purchased the app legally.

Have you read the real deal from RR? If not, check it out....
ReadyAndAble is offline  
Old 07-03-2012, 03:11 PM
  # 404 (permalink)  
Member
 
DoubtfulDebs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 113
well i'm at a year today and also on my buddie's comp so can't stay long... i was looking for a avrt/rr thread but not sure which is best to post on?

good luck to all the "ratters" out there, i did it so you can, you just have to know that beast (i call it the rat because i hate rats!!!)
DoubtfulDebs is offline  
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to DoubtfulDebs For This Useful Post:
Aussiebutterfly (07-03-2012), Dalek (07-05-2012), GerandTwine (07-03-2012), lillyknitting (07-04-2012), ReadyAndAble (07-03-2012), Renee65 (07-03-2012), Tippingpoint (07-06-2012), Weasel1966 (07-06-2012)
Old 07-04-2012, 08:58 PM
  # 405 (permalink)  
Member
 
Dalek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 309
Seeing alcohol as "poison" or something that doesn't "feel good"

I responded to one of ReadyAndAble's posts on another thread, but my response really belongs here.

Originally Posted by Dalek View Post
Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
That said, there are no conditions on my continued abstinence, either. Good times, bad times, it doesn't matter. At this point the old triggers are just reminders of how lucky I am to no longer see alcohol as something that makes me feel better, either in good times or in bad.
What if you did see alcohol as something that made you feel better? What then? Would you drink? Is seeing alcohol as something that makes you feel worse a condition for your abstinence?

All conditions for abstinence are automatically conditions for drunkenness. Seeing alcohol as "poison" is an all time AV classic, little more than a speed bump for the Beast. It can easily see through any such tricks.

Tighten up the loose screws! Call the Beast on its last remaining bluff. Decide to abstain even if alcohol did make you feel better.

(You'll know what I'm talking about when you do.)
Dalek is offline  
Old 07-04-2012, 09:47 PM
  # 406 (permalink)  
Member
 
Dalek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by InsertNameHere View Post
You don't even have to be an addict to have it, you know that voice that tells you a certain flavor of ice cream is your favorite, even if you don't buy it. Thats it right there. At least that is the way i see it. AV is that instinctual voice that says to go after anything pleasurable, everyone has it.
Your body speaks to you, directing your thoughts and feelings to ensure your survival and comfort. Your Addictive Voice does indeed stem from that same instinctive "animal voice" that ensures your survival and comfort, but not all animal voice is Addictive Voice. The two are very similar, but they are not quite the same thing.

The Addictive Voice is an exaggerated, maladaptive version of your healthy, animal voice. It can overtake your better judgment to the detriment of your survival and well being. Unless you have an ice cream Beast or a Feast Beast, that desire for "cookies 'n cream" flavored ice cream is not Addictive Voice, just as not all indulgences are addictions.
Dalek is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dalek For This Useful Post:
DarkDays (07-06-2012), RobbyRobot (07-06-2012)
Old 07-05-2012, 05:54 AM
  # 407 (permalink)  
Self recovered Self discovered
 
freshstart57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,147
Well, Hmmmmmm. You might have read a few of my attempts to wave the AVRT flag in other forums, and I consider.my Big Plan to be a good one. It took me some time to come to the moral aspect of abstinence, but, as RR says, that is the final brick in the wall for me.

I am pondering the statement that the view of alcohol as a poison, is my AV. What if it weren't a poison, would I drink then? Is that different from this, that alcohol is a substance that gets me high - if it weren't, would I drink then? W If these statements have a different weight in the RR paradigm, does that mean that it is OK to drink poison if it doesn't get me high? Why is 'Gets me high = poison' an association that is inconsistent with RR?
freshstart57 is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to freshstart57 For This Useful Post:
RobbyRobot (07-06-2012), Tippingpoint (07-06-2012)
Old 07-05-2012, 06:59 AM
  # 408 (permalink)  
Not The Way way, Just the way
 
GerandTwine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,414
Blog Entries: 13
Comparing Absolutes is Not the Same as Mislabeling a Substance

It is AV activity to consider alcohol a poison - it gives DEEEEEEP PLEASURE - (as well as all the negative after effects which led us to quit). Wanting to consume it is simply a misallocated sign of health, not disease.

I do not look or think of alcohol as if it were Drano, but I am aware and can easily contemplate that the likelihood of my drinking alcohol is the same as the likelihood of my drinking Drano. These are two very different concepts.

Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Here are the last two sentences in the meaty section of learning AVRT in Part II of RR: TNC, on p. 210.

"If you have made a Big Plan, try getting out of it, and discover the meaning of the word never.
"Tomorrow, your Beast will be busy at work, trying to salvage a foothold in your thinking. Will you be ready? I bet you will be."

By definition, a Big Plan stays in place and is followed by its maker for the rest of her/his life. Otherwise, it must have been some other sort of plan, even from the moment of conception, and the planner must know that. From this it's clear that the Big Plan can only be made once for quitting any given substance.

Here's another way I understand the Big Plan. Basic human competency is all that's needed to succeed at both "I never drink alcohol" as well as "I never drink Drano". Then, why is it that some people seem to think they don't know if they've truly succeeded at the first plan when they clearly know they've succeeded at the second? The very deliberate, complex in-your-face voluntary movements and actions involved in violating each plan are identical.

Well, the difference is The Beast, and only The Beast; and that's where the Structural Model and AVRT come in - not because the Big Plan requires AVRT, (because people have been quitting for good all on their own for centuries without AVRT) - it's just that AVRT makes living with the Big Plan a heck of a lot easier. AVRT was developed from studying how self-recovery works.

So, my conclusion is that I can have just as much confidence at succeeding with "I never drink alcohol." as I have confidence at succeeding with "I never drink Drano." And I DO know ABSOLUTELY, whether or not I really did make a Big Plan when I made it. There are no two ways about it.

So, I repeat, AVRT is not an "insurance policy" for The Big Plan. There are no "insurance policies" needed for the Big Plan. AVRT just makes living with the Big Plan a lot easier.
GerandTwine is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to GerandTwine For This Useful Post:
Aussiebutterfly (07-05-2012), Dalek (07-06-2012), HitRockBottom70 (07-06-2012), Renee65 (07-05-2012)
Old 07-06-2012, 01:07 AM
  # 409 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Dalek
All conditions for abstinence are automatically conditions for drunkenness. Seeing alcohol as "poison" is an all time AV classic, little more than a speed bump for the Beast. It can easily see through any such tricks.
Originally Posted by GerandTwine
It is AV activity to consider alcohol a poison - it gives DEEEEEEP PLEASURE - (as well as all the negative after effects which led us to quit). Wanting to consume it is simply a misallocated sign of health, not disease.

I do not look or think of alcohol as if it were Drano, but I am aware and can easily contemplate that the likelihood of my drinking alcohol is the same as the likelihood of my drinking Drano. These are two very different concepts.
Interesting. I've known alcohol to be akin to poison, in my mind, for decades, and I've not suffered from respective AV activity particular to this understanding. Alcohol consumption is as fatal for me as any fatal poison of another name. Not sure i understand why my Beast or how my Beast can or could get any milage out of my subjective comparative understanding of my certain death should I not live within my sans-alcohol life. If I die, my Beast dies, and such an outcome hardly satisfies my Beast, lol. My tested-and-proven understanding provides no favors for my Beast, is my ongoing experience.

RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 07-06-2012, 09:50 AM
  # 410 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Out west
Posts: 191
I think from a Rational Recovery view point, by perceiving alcohol as a poison I am engaging in conversation with the beast. I am above the beast, I don't have to reason with it on its level. Also, the beast doesn't care if I die, the beast just wants alcohol. The fact that many people have lost their lives due to alcohol addiction is sufficient enough evidence for me.
Elphaba is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Elphaba For This Useful Post:
freshstart57 (07-06-2012), Lenina (07-06-2012)
Old 07-06-2012, 10:06 AM
  # 411 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
To my Beast, drinking alcohol is pure pleasure. Drinking poison is not pleasure. Engaging in a conversation is different than my being aware of and authorative against my Beast.
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Dalek (07-06-2012), freshstart57 (07-06-2012), HitRockBottom70 (07-06-2012), Lenina (07-06-2012)
Old 07-06-2012, 11:13 AM
  # 412 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by gerandtwine View Post
it is av activity to consider alcohol a poison
Surely the opposite is the case.

AV activity might increase after reading about the health benefits of small quantities of alcohol, rather than after reading about the toxic effects of booze.
harry101 is offline  
Old 07-06-2012, 06:10 PM
  # 413 (permalink)  
Member
 
Dalek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 309
The Beast is undeterred by scarecrows

Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
I am pondering the statement that the view of alcohol as a poison, is my AV. What if it weren't a poison, would I drink then?

Why is 'Gets me high = poison' an association that is inconsistent with RR?
When I read ReadyAndAble's post about being lucky to not see alcohol as something that makes him feel better, I initially saw it as a very minor variation of the "it doesn't feel good anymore" Beast set-up, which was addressed in this post.
The Beast is completely undeterred by such tactics, and it can actually use them to its advantage. People may try to see alcohol as poison, but the Beast knows beyond doubt that alcohol is not poison, because to the Beast, alcohol is actually life giving and life sustaining. If your abstinence depends on seeing alcohol as poison, then all your Beast has to do is convince you that it isn't, and this arrangement is actually quite beneficial to the Beast. Remember, the Beast is a pleasure-driven survival drive, and addiction is persistent in large part because the human body does not remember pain as well as it does pleasure. The RR book covers this on page 122, under the heading "Why can't I remember the pain?"

Time is not on your side with that tactic. Don't believe me? How many posts have you seen from people wondering why they drink even though they know it makes them feel like crap the next day? They may try to picture the standard "skull and crossbones" poison sign on that beer bottle, but the Beast will not be threatened in the least by that, and it certainly won't be deterred. When the time comes, especially once the painful memory of that last hangover begins to fade, the Beast will just say "you know it just ain't poison, and that unlike poison, it will feel really good, so just go for it, pal!"

Besides, alcohol, while poisonous to the human body in large quantities, isn't just poison. Like all hedonic drugs, the damage alcohol causes is secondary to the buzz or the high, and everyone intuitively knows this. What is the street value of poison? Can you actually set up shop on a street corner and sell arsenic, for example? Can you even give it away for free? How many junkies would line up for that sweet deal?
Dalek is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Dalek For This Useful Post:
HitRockBottom70 (07-06-2012), Lenina (07-06-2012), Renee65 (07-06-2012), RobbyRobot (07-06-2012), Tippingpoint (07-06-2012)
Old 07-06-2012, 06:16 PM
  # 414 (permalink)  
Member
 
Lenina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 8,326
For me, there is no negotiating with the Beast or AV. I don't drink. Ever. Issue resolved, case closed.

Love from Lenina
Lenina is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Lenina For This Useful Post:
Dalek (07-06-2012), RobbyRobot (07-06-2012)
Old 07-06-2012, 06:37 PM
  # 415 (permalink)  
Member
 
Dalek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
To my Beast, drinking alcohol is pure pleasure. Drinking poison is not pleasure.
Getting closer. The mistake people make is in attempting to deny the reason the Beast keeps directing them towards that next drink, which is the buzz, or in attempting to scare the Beast away with figurative danger signs. The Beast knows that alcohol is not poison; it is the Beast's lifeblood. All the surgeon general's warnings in the world will not scare it or deter it from that next fix.

Part of the AVRT tool set is the "shifting" skill, in which we alternate our point of view towards a substance between us and the Beast (I and IT). In shifting, we do not deny what is driving the Beast, or try to scare it away with thoughts of all the bad stuff that will happen if we drink. Rather, we see alcohol as it is, recognizing both the good and the bad, alternatively from each perspective.
Dalek is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dalek For This Useful Post:
HitRockBottom70 (07-06-2012), Lenina (07-06-2012), RobbyRobot (07-06-2012)
Old 07-06-2012, 06:40 PM
  # 416 (permalink)  
Member
 
Tippingpoint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto ON
Posts: 1,180
Good discussion guys. I've enjoyed the dissection of the alcohol is poison defense!

You are correct of course...alcohol is not poison...I'm pretty sure that most of us could drink a fair bit of it and live to tell the tale...we've done it hundreds of times before after all.

Exposing this fallacy is good for me.

Call a spade a spade.
Tippingpoint is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tippingpoint For This Useful Post:
Dalek (07-06-2012), RobbyRobot (07-06-2012)
Old 07-06-2012, 07:12 PM
  # 417 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Dalek View Post
Getting closer. The mistake people make is in attempting to deny the reason the Beast keeps directing them towards that next drink, which is the buzz, or in attempting to scare the Beast away with figurative danger signs. The Beast knows that alcohol is not poison; it is the Beast's lifeblood. All the surgeon general's warnings in the world will not scare it or deter it from that next fix.
Okay. I'm not trying to 'scare the Beast away.' I don't care what the Beast knows or dosen't know, lol. Why would I? 30+ years of sobriety experience with my own AV is what it is, and although I'm no expert with RR: AVRT, I still know my AV, and my AV dosen't jump or otherwise become active simply because I subjectively understand alcohol as a poison.

I'm not making a mistake. You don't agree with me, that's cool. Seriously, my Beast is a real dummy, lol, and I don't play games with it. At the end of the day, I rule, and it drools.

RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Dalek (07-06-2012), Lenina (07-06-2012), Tippingpoint (07-07-2012)
Old 07-06-2012, 07:20 PM
  # 418 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Dalek View Post
Part of the AVRT tool set is the "shifting" skill, in which we alternate our point of view towards a substance between us and the Beast (I and IT). In shifting, we do not deny what is driving the Beast, or try to scare it away with thoughts of all the bad stuff that will happen if we drink. Rather, we see alcohol as it is, recognizing both the good and the bad, alternatively from each perspective.
I agree with this no problemo. On the other hand, I rule. My Beast has been thirsty and wailing for decades now. I dictate to It what is what. All it can do is obey and/or wail since its not ever gonna get its alcohol, lol.

Has this been a good discussion?

I don't think so. I thought RR:TNC AVRT was much tougher and to the point than this discussion has shown me. Sorry, just being honest.

What I see, if I may, from this discussion, is a rather over respect for the Beast. Its nothing but a dumbass, has been my experience.

FWIW, I'm almost finished reading RR:TNC.
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Lenina (07-06-2012), Tippingpoint (07-07-2012)
Old 07-06-2012, 07:29 PM
  # 419 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Tippingpoint View Post
Good discussion guys. I've enjoyed the dissection of the alcohol is poison defense!

You are correct of course...alcohol is not poison...I'm pretty sure that most of us could drink a fair bit of it and live to tell the tale...we've done it hundreds of times before after all.

Exposing this fallacy is good for me.

Call a spade a spade.
Actually, I don't use it as a defense. I can see AV though in your post. The part I've put in bold looks like pure AV to me, fwiw.

RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Lenina (07-06-2012), Tippingpoint (07-07-2012)
Old 07-06-2012, 07:50 PM
  # 420 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Dalek View Post
Time is not on your side with that tactic. Don't believe me? How many posts have you seen from people wondering why they drink even though they know it makes them feel like crap the next day? They may try to picture the standard "skull and crossbones" poison sign on that beer bottle, but the Beast will not be threatened in the least by that, and it certainly won't be deterred. When the time comes, especially once the painful memory of that last hangover begins to fade, the Beast will just say "you know it just ain't poison, and that unlike poison, it will feel really good, so just go for it, pal!"

Besides, alcohol, while poisonous to the human body in large quantities, isn't just poison. Like all hedonic drugs, the damage alcohol causes is secondary to the buzz or the high, and everyone intuitively knows this. What is the street value of poison? Can you actually set up shop on a street corner and sell arsenic, for example? Can you even give it away for free? How many junkies would line up for that sweet deal?

Again, my Beast has no ability for memory, and no ability for any intellectual whatever: its about as smart as a bag of rocks, lol.

No matter my message to my Beast, it will always have the same response: its wants alcohol... so... it really is of small consequence what it knows or dosen't know, since it always behaves the same no matter the situation.

The accumlative damage done by alcohol to my psyche can't be empirically measured, like you can when inspecting the purely physical damage of alcohol to my body / brain and so on. The psychic damage is nonetheless the more serious damage for most alcoholics, and their physical damage pales in comparison, is my experience working with others who decide to live a life of abstinence. Yes, I'm an alcoholic, and my stating this dosen't get my Beast up and howling, either, fwiw.

RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Lenina (07-06-2012)

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:52 AM.