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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 4

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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 4

Old 06-19-2012, 08:39 AM
  # 381 (permalink)  
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I wanted to just jump in and say to DominoRose that I understand exactly what you are saying when wondering how to apply AVRT to eating disorders. The way I figured it out is to believe that it is not [I]eating[I] you are trying to abstain from, since this is obviously, as you stated, impossible, but that you are abstaining from the DISORDER I would say that "i will not purge, I will not binge, ever" It is only the disorder you want to be rid of, not food altogether. The way I did this is to learn about healthy eating and exactly follow those rules. It is and it isn't just as hard as it sounds. So, daily, I eat healthy food in healthy amounts, I do not purge (even if I feel I ate too much - this is your AV because if you are following a precise, healthy eating plan, you KNOW you are not actually eating too much, but your AV will convince you that you are) and therefore, I also never binge.

I hope this helps a bit. I hope you are doing well
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:04 PM
  # 382 (permalink)  
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Don't forget Jack Trimpey wrote a book called "Taming the Feast Beast" so not a bad idea to check it out if dealing with eating issues.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:45 PM
  # 383 (permalink)  
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Haven't posted in awhile, but am still checking the posts almost daily. Just had a bit of beast talking to me today. I was reading a story about a man who drank alcoholically every day from a young age until about 75, he lived until 95. I could feel the beast stirring and saying "you're 50, you have a lot more drinking time left until you have to seriously consider quitting. That man quit late in life and lived to a ripe old age and so can you." I get that a lot from the beast. It seems to always use any opportunity to try to compare me with other drinkers as an excuse to tell me I'm not that bad and therefore I should just keep up drinking. It also likes shows like intervention for the same reason.
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Old 06-21-2012, 02:36 PM
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Thrifty, I am sure my beast would feel the same if it read that. Mine tried to tell me the other day that now that I'm so very healthy that I'd have no problem drinking now. LOL!!!!

I use to watch intervention too, what a sad show. That mega rich chubby guy (I forget his name) is just oozing beast when I think back. He never wanted to stop and shouldn't have been there. Not sure how he's going now.
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:34 AM
  # 385 (permalink)  
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RE: Refutations

Originally Posted by IAmAbstinent View Post
I lost the page now but I was just reading a part on beast refutations- that inst what it was called in the book but where Trimpey gives a list of beast excuses then refutes them.
This is in Chapter 8 of RR:TNC, on pages 102-106. If you go back and re-read it, you'll notice that Trimpey lists various common (false) reasons addicted people give for getting high, then the real reason, and finally, his summary of the situation. You are mistaking his summaries with a need to refute the addictive voice, but there is no need to do so, because we know that regardless of what the AV says, the Beast just wants that buzz.

In his summaries, Trimpey is not saying "one chooses to use because of...", which would be yet another excuse, he is saying "one chooses to use instead of..." He knows that people get drunk or high because they want to feel that buzz, and rocket themselves to cloud 9, 12, 17, or as high as their budget allows. Here is his first example, with my explanation in parentheses.

Originally Posted by Rational Recovery: The New Cure, Pg. 103

"TO RELAX AFTER A HARD DAY" (The reason given to others for getting high)

After a hard day, I want to feel the pleasure of getting high. (The real reason, what the Beast is actually thinking)

Instead of naturally relaxing, one chooses the pleasure of drinking or using and then reports that one can't relax without the drug. (His summary)
To help you flush out the AV, I'll go through your list and pose a question that will spell out the possible built-in excuse for future drug use implicit in your refutations [red, in brackets]. Remember, the definition of the Addictive Voice is "any thinking that supports or even suggests the possible future use of alcohol and other drugs."

Originally Posted by IAmAbstinent View Post
Here's what I've come up with:

I chose to use because... Refutation

1. There was nothing else to do|||||| I chose to use rather than making the effort to find constructive and healthy enjoyment in life

[If you don't find constructive and healthy enjoyment in life, will you get high?]

2. ...of stress|||||| I chose to use because I did not want to make the effort to find proven and effective stress reduction techniques

[If you don't find proven and effective stress reduction techniques, will you get high?]

3. of depression||||||I chose to use because I did not want to make the effort to build a fulfilling lifestyle

[If you don't build a fulfilling lifestyle, will you get high?]

4. I wanted confidence||||I to use rather than learning lasting confidence strategies

[If you don't learn lasting confidence strategies, will you get high?]

5. Other people have their vices so its only fair I have mine||||I chose to use rather than making the effort to find constructive and healthy enjoyment in life

[If you don't find constructive and healthy enjoyment in life, will you get high?]
On the subject of refutations of the AV in general, we don't have a need to do such things with AVRT, because the Big Plan is the ultimate refutation or rejection of the AV. With a Big Plan in place, the subject of getting high is no longer up for discussion. Think about it. If you're not going to get high again, what is there to discuss or refute?

Originally Posted by Rational Recovery, The New Cure, Pg. 39
The "R" in AVRT stands for recognition—not "removal," "refutation," or "reasoning with." Just recognize your Beast's feelings and thinking, and they will fall silent. It is only when you engage in dialogue with the AV, or attempt to reason or argue with it, that you will have "white knuckles."
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:15 AM
  # 386 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
1. What is the AVRT way to quickly recognize and dispose of a Beast Lie?
On page 152 of "The New Cure," Trimpey suggests changing the Beast lie into a question. For example, "I'm bored, there is nothing to do without getting drunk" would become "Is there really nothing to do, or is boredom just an overused excuse to get drunk?"

On the same page, though, he says this won't really cut it, and he introduces Addiction Diction, which is what I usually fall back on, along with the AVRT Law of Attribution. Instead of questioning what the AV is pumping at me, I just think something along these lines:
"IT, my Beast, wants to drink, but I don't drink, nor do I even want to drink, because that desire is not me, but the Beast."
If the Beast is really struggling, such as might occur during the first couple days of withdrawal, something like this can do the trick:
"I feel the Beast struggle inside me, but I am not struggling as I feel IT struggle, because IT is not me, and I am not IT. If IT struggles and suffers, that's just too bad for IT."

Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
2. What is the one clear and logical reason that dependent users drink or drug?
To feel the glow of addictive pleasure, the sensate signature (the particular artificial buzz) of a substance not found elsewhere in nature.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:57 AM
  # 387 (permalink)  
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No addictive voice?


"I don't have an addictive voice."

I read the above statement on another thread, from someone apparently not very familiar with AVRT. The Addictive Voice of AVRT is defined as "any thinking, imagery, or feeling that supports, or even suggests, the possibility that you might drink or use, ever." All addicted people have such thoughts or feelings.

Do you think that you need to do "X", "Y", or "Z" in order to not drink? That suggests that if you don't do "X", "Y", or "Z", that you might drink, so that is, by definition, your addictive voice. All conditions for abstinence are automatically conditions for using, and any desire for such conditions in order to abstain is AV.

Your desire for support, or any other special condition in order to abstain, conceals a plan to drink/use in the absence of those conditions.
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:49 AM
  # 388 (permalink)  
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You don't even have to be an addict to have it, you know that voice that tells you a certain flavor of ice cream is your favorite, even if you don't buy it. Thats it right there. At least that is the way i see it. AV is that instinctual voice that says to go after anything pleasurable, everyone has it. Ours has just been well (or poorly depending on your point of view) trained to go after its favorite thing.

Figured I would jump into this disussion, I haven't read all the way through the threads yet but I will. Also re-reading RR again a little slower this time trying to absorb more.

Hello everyone
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:22 PM
  # 389 (permalink)  
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Hello InsertNameHere

Some great points there guys.

Dalek you said "I feel the Beast struggle inside me, but I am not struggling as I feel IT struggle, because IT is not me, and I am not IT. If IT struggles and suffers, that's just too bad for IT." I also like to remember how it tried/tries to kill me so then I don't feel so bad letting it struggle.

I hope you pointed out to them what an addictive voice is Dalek since they don't get it. InsertNameHere is right it's that little voice that shows we are healthy and want pleasure from things even things like icecream perhaps.
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Old 06-26-2012, 02:53 PM
  # 390 (permalink)  
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I got the Rational Recovery book (and Taming the Feast Beast for myself) after talking with my AH about it; he said he would like to read it.

I read the chapter for families of A's first and saw that it was mine to read the whole book as well. (That works just fine for me.)

It also told me to first go and learn if my AH was chemically dependent or addicted. I hadn't made that distinguishing analysis yet. I talked with him about it and he is not addicted, he is chemically dependent.

This is a gift of clarity for me. I don't like what I see, but I would rather see the truth than see an illusion.

He hasn't touched the book. I'm glad I have.
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Old 06-26-2012, 05:56 PM
  # 391 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MeredithD1 View Post
I got the Rational Recovery book (and Taming the Feast Beast for myself) after talking with my AH about it; he said he would like to read it.

I read the chapter for families of A's first and saw that it was mine to read the whole book as well. (That works just fine for me.)

It also told me to first go and learn if my AH was chemically dependent or addicted. I hadn't made that distinguishing analysis yet. I talked with him about it and he is not addicted, he is chemically dependent.

This is a gift of clarity for me. I don't like what I see, but I would rather see the truth than see an illusion.

He hasn't touched the book. I'm glad I have.
In the following context of AVRT terms, one can clearly understand the difference between "chemically dependent" and "addicted". I put in bold type the paragraph that most relates to what Meredith has discovered about her AH.

Originally Posted by GerandTwine:
As I became familiar with RR meanings of terms, I saw how logical and sensible the definitions were. I soon realized I had passed through the following conditions regarding drinking (and smoking pot):

A - Born as - Abstinent (Me = no) no internal conflicts
B - Tried out - Non-dependent drinking (Me = yes, The Beast doesn't exist) no internal conflicts
C - Evolved to - Dependent drinking (Me = yes, It = yes) The Beast is born, no AVRT, no internal conflicts, some external problem solving
D - Transitioned to - Addicted drinking (Me = no, It = yes) Strong internal and external conflicts
E - Made Big Plan - Abstinent (Me = Never, It is a quadriplegic) E is just like A, with the exception that AVRT makes what was an internal "conflict" simply an internal Recognition

As I thought about these conditions, I realized since I had done much experimentation, that I could not backtrack from C to B, and would not backtrack from D to C. So, I took the plunge with E and wow, was that once in a lifetime high dive arc through the air and into the pool refreshing.

Most people remain in condition A or B, although B may be abbreviated in some drug use. It's no big deal to get back to A from B.

Only I could know I had transitioned to condition D because it was based on a change in my own judgment that drinking ever again would be not be just a dangerous gamble, but it would be point blank wrong. For a while, I lied to family and friends about being in conditions D or E, while I was actually still in condition C, hiding getting drunk. That's how, later on, my Beast tried to take particular advantage of my drinking dreams with relapse anxiety.

Because they are unstable/unpredictable, conditions C and D can be, and often are, very short-lived as people move relatively quickly from A to E.
Meredith, even though your AH must be telling you he simply doesn't think it's wrong for him to drink some more; that doesn't mean you are powerless to prevent further abuses from living with a dependent drinker (as I'm sure you know from reading RR:TNC).
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:16 AM
  # 392 (permalink)  
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Friends and Family

Originally Posted by MeredithD1 View Post
This is a gift of clarity for me. I don't like what I see, but I would rather see the truth than see an illusion.

He hasn't touched the book. I'm glad I have.
Thank you for posting this, Meredith. I think quite a few people from the "Friends and Family" side would benefit from reading the Rational Recovery book, even if their family members have no interest in quitting. It provides an inside view of what actually goes on in addicted people's minds, well beyond what they would have others believe, and vindicates people from the guilt of being an enabler. Since AVRT is all about exposing the addictive voice which perpetuates addiction, and which addicted people almost always project onto others, AVRT is also the ultimate addict lie detector, bar none.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:49 PM
  # 393 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Aussiebutterfly View Post
Sorry if I sound harsh but I'm not trying to be but it's just how RR works. It's honest and to the point and best thing is it works when you follow a few little tips.
I will take this even further, Aussiebutterfly. AVRT is brutally honest, and for good reason. The Beast is a ruthless, perverted survival drive pointing not towards life, but towards death, and the Addictive Voice is a rogue mentality that perpetuates it. It must operate in secrecy in order to be effective, though, and once exposed, it is defeated.

Resist the urge to be overly "supportive" on this thread, or watch it mutate into yet another support group, with AVRT taking a back seat to other issues, or being misconstrued and bastardized to accommodate other issues. This happened with the old RR group meetings, and Trimpey did not hesitate to shut them down. I would not put it past him to request that this thread be locked if the same thing were to happen here.

We can certainly temper our delivery, since AVRT is actually quite effective when used as a flashlight (as opposed to a hammer), but I say leave the support stuff to the hundreds of other threads on this web site. The best we can do for someone on this thread is to help them flush out their own addictive voice so they can start seeing the forest from the trees. Shine a light on it, and like a cockroach, the Beast will scatter.

It is true that AVRT stings, and that some people will be reluctant to post in this thread on account of that, but that is better than not having this thread at all. Those who are motivated will post regardless, or simply read quietly without posting. The view counter on this thread suggests it has tons of lurkers who are learning from this discussion. The rest will gravitate to other recovery methods, which, as I told hypochondriac, is perfectly fine by me.
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:40 PM
  # 394 (permalink)  
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Can we influence dependent people to decide it is wrong to drink/use any more?

Originally Posted by Dalek View Post
Thank you for posting this, Meredith. I think quite a few people from the "Friends and Family" side would benefit from reading the Rational Recovery book, even if their family members have no interest in quitting. It provides an inside view of what actually goes on in addicted people's minds, well beyond what they would have others believe, and vindicates people from the guilt of being an enabler. Since AVRT is all about exposing the addictive voice which perpetuates addiction, and which addicted people almost always project onto others, AVRT is also the ultimate addict lie detector, bar none.
I want to expand a bit on the what I think are false implications in two related phrases in recent posts.
1) Dalek's phrase that I highlighted in bold type above; and
2) one I made to Meredith that included "he simply doesn't think it's wrong for him to drink some more"

Can dependent people be influenced to change their minds about their dependent drinking/using from being OK to being wrong? I think so.
And, is it really that black and white, or, are there gray areas where it can go back and forth between being sometimes right and sometimes wrong? I think it's pretty black and white (animal and human).

This is where a dependent user's personal morality plays a giant role and I believe it can be influenced by other people that have "leverage" in their lives.

I knew as far back as college that my binge drinking was absolutely the wrong thing to do because I knew that wasn't what I was there for, but I didn't care enough to consider ending forever my newer drinking/toking lifestyle that I had spent a lot of time and effort to establish alongside the rest of my being-in-my-right-mind life. As time passed and my dependency became more deeply entrenched, being in an altered state of mind came to feel more and more like a mandatory part of who I was. The real fully-human me, though, knew if this was true, I was royally screwed.

The real me, with values instilled from my first twenty years, did maintain an existence all throughout my drinking/toking career, and that is what eventually took over and dominated my plans for the future use of alcohol/drugs with NEVER again.

I think every adult who is dependent on getting mind altered with alcohol/drugs knows there is something wrong about being in that condition. But they are still relieved when good people around them tolerate it, get confused, detach, and/or do nothing.

I also think it is not just acceptable, but it should be expected of family/friends/fellow-workers/community-authorities to help drive that knowing wrongness out into the open and reinforce it in the right minds of not only addicted, but also of dependent users. This is where AVRT becomes so useful and lays it all out by exposing the lies, myths, excuses, and Beastly self-righteousness that drag red herrings across the path towards the simple truths behind chemical dependency.

To sum up, I think dependent drinkers/users know what they're doing has a very significant "wrong factor", and AVRT identifies the problem and plows the road clear of all the misinformation obscuring the simple truths. So, my answer to the subject question is "Yes, and AVRT gives the framework for doing just that."

People who use AVRT to recover take a big initial moral hit, but for me, it was a hit that made quitting easier in both the short term and the long term and when I understood the choice of making The Big Plan, I realized it was a blessing of ultimate human competence, absolutely free for the taking.
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Old 06-29-2012, 07:52 PM
  # 395 (permalink)  
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Cannot believe this

pg 99 of RR:TNC

Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep Pleasure
You drink because you love to get drunk. You get high because you love the feeling.


Man o man...you mean it's not because I have soooooooo much stress in my life on a daily basis? It's not because of various nasty things that happened in my childhood? It's not because I come from a long line of drunks? It's not because I have the disease of alcoholism?

It puts the responsibility squarely on my shoulders ::gasp:: I drank to get drunk to feel that deeeeeeeeeep pleasure. So revolutionary. This answers so many murky questions that have plagued me since I started drinking. It annihilates every sorry excuse I ever used to justify my drinking. I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere but I just had to comment on this as I just read it. It is amazing to me and so liberating. I know this is true to my core.
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:28 PM
  # 396 (permalink)  
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So true Renee. We do that then we have a never ending list of reasons why we have to keep drinking.
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Old 06-30-2012, 08:41 PM
  # 397 (permalink)  
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When you fight, you invite a fight. But when you do not resist, you meet with no resistance. When you refuse to play the game, you are out of it".

~Nisargadatta

I read an older post from Terminally Unique where he suggested to not engage with the AV. To simply recognize the train of thoughts, feelings and images of drinking as 100% AV (not me) and simply observe. This has helped me immensely today with some beast activity. Like the above quote, I found when I started to "fight" with the AV, I was back in the "game" (to drink or not to drink). When I dropped all resistence to AV and simply recognized IT was not me, IT stopped.

Thank you guys for this thread, it's amazing.
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Old 06-30-2012, 10:10 PM
  # 398 (permalink)  
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Unbelievable how simple it is really, that what is amazing. Just remembering that you don't want the drink but Beast (midbrain) does and that you will not get into any discussions regarding drinking/using with it at all works like a charm. You don't drink ever, nothing more to think about.

Good for you Renee65!
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:02 PM
  # 399 (permalink)  
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I know AVRT is copy righted but is AV

T have a question. I know that AVRT addictive voice recogniton training is copy righted but is AV by its self?
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:13 PM
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I have a question that needs to be answered. I have an iphone app and an ipad app named Addictive Voice Emergeny Reality Training (AVERT) I am woundering if I violated any copy right issues. If I did I am sorry and I will change it.
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