Stayinfree

Hi

thanks for the replies.

I was looking out for TU's response and a little 'straight talking' from him and I am gutted to find out he's no longer about. If you read this, thanks for all you have done, you have helped more than you will ever know.

SF

soberlicious

Contrary to some misconceptions, TU is not drinking again.

Morning Glory

TU's support here was really appreciated.

I'm sure he would want you to know that he is still sober and his Big Plan is solid.

TU is no longer a member due to circumstances that were beyond his control and our control.

We all wish him well.

I hope that you all continue to learn and move forward.

soberlicious

Yes, all true MG. He truly commends all the mods for the great job they do.

harry101

If you made a Big Plan to never smoke again no matter what, why "wouldn't it be too bad ordinarily"?

A Big Plan is unconditional, even if your employer started encouraging you to smoke on the job.

Aussiebutterfly

Stayinfree, If you read back over your last 3 posts you'll see that you've mentioned support twice. AVRT isn't about support at all, it is the opposite of meetings/treatment centres etc.. AVRT is only for learning the tools we need to never drink/use again then move on with our lives.

If you haven't already done so then I suggest you subscribe for a month to the RR forum and you will soon see that Jack Trimpey will make it loud and clear about how we don't do AVRT for support.

Dalek, don't feed the beast! Don't let it ruin your life just to puff on a cancer stick!! IT is trying to kill you, can't you see that??? What are your plans for further use? I'm quite suprised you did this since you seem to have a good understanding of the technique.

soberlicious

AVRT is about self recovery, not unecessary dependency. I believe there are some old posts discussing the fact that dependency is the original problem and that more dependency won't solve it. The AVRT threads are a wonderful resource and I personally find these discussions interesting. The book is important, and other related materials can most certainly be helpful...but the bottom line is- the onus is on the individual to take the information and use it to quit. Anyone is fully capable of recovering. Believe that.

jberk65

Thats right this NOT a support group. This is the..
"Suck it up, get over it and move on with your life" forum.

Dalek

Tough crowd! You guys make Terminally Unique's style look a little on the soft side. I've been reading through previous posts, and I have to say, I'm surprised by the level of detail on here. Unusual to find (in a nice way).

Kudos to those who were able to spot the addictive voice and waffling in my cigarette smoking post, though, as it was spot on. I do know that my Beast will gladly cash in my job and my life in for a cancer stick. There is no doubt about it.

I was just reading on the WhyQuit smoking site that the average smoker only musters the determination for one quit "attempt" every three years, and my Beast just lit up with glee. We can put off "trying" to quit for three more years! Christmas and New Year's all rolled up into one!

So, what's my plan? I am going to smoke my last cancer stick on Saturday night before going to sleep. Yes, I know that is just more AV waffling, but I have to meet with the boss tomorrow and Saturday, and I don't want to be going through physical withdrawal at the time, which lasts about 72 hours.

The Beast says "that's very good, don't quit now, put it off for just a little bit longer."

Aussiebutterfly

But Dalek, you aren't an average smoker are you? You know AVRT!

Dalek

Only insofar as "your desire for group or family support in order to remain sober conceals a plan to drink/use in the absence of support."

On the other hand, with its relentless, unyielding insistence on the natural, innate ability of addicted people to self-correct and end their addictions, without the ongoing support of others, AVRT provides the most important type of support there is: moral support.

If others say that you can't ever go it alone, AVRT says, yes you can!

If others say that you will be struggling against your addiction for ever and ever unless you constantly work on it, AVRT says, no you wont!

AVRT provides hope for a return to your original self, and to life as it was prior to your addiction. RR never had too many mottoes, but one of the big ones was "believe in people, not programs!"

soberlicious

"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"
Yes indeed.

soberlicious

OK, so reading RR The New Cure. I am already recovered and did so in an AVRTish way without knowing it at the time. While I contribute to this thread and others, sharing my ES&H (yeah, I did just say that ) I realized it is kind of important for me to read the book in it's entirety for the purposes of discussion and for my own personal interest in how this mirrors how I quit (or vice versa?) Since it's been pointed out that my beast can read, she is doing so posthumously. It's an interesting experience. Yes, I am aware the beast never actually dies completely, but "damn she skinny". What's funny is I am laughing at the beast, the only stirrings I'm getting are that sheepish kind of thing a dog does when it's pooped in the house. You know the head hanging, tail between it's legs. It's been caught, exposed, and belittled.

Dalek

I am reading "The Art of AVRT," since it has a section on smoking. Chapter 7 in the book is called "The Big Gun," and it deals with the morality of drinking/using. The "big gun" is moral judgment.

Without judging anyone else, it asks two big questions:

1. Considering all of your experience with alcohol and other drugs, is it right or wrong for you to drink/use in the moral sense?
   
   
2. How would you rate your drinking/using on a scale of immorality? Way down on the bottom? Near the top?

I think this is what tripped me up with the cigarettes. It is not difficult for me to see that drinking is wrong for me, since it causes all sorts of problems, including damage to myself and others. Smoking, on the other hand, doesn't really alter my mind as radically as drinking, and I don't do terrible things while smoking. I saw smoking as bad for me, but I never really saw it as wrong. This weakens AVRT significantly.

Dalek

No, and IT is an opportunistic little *******, too. If IT can't get in through the front door, it will try the side door. When IT realized that I was going to stop feeding IT nicotine, my Beast actually suggested that I get really drunk for three whole days so that I (IT) wouldn't have to feel the discomfort of nicotine withdrawal. Of course, I know that I smoked even more while drinking, and that once I had a good buzz going, the very first thing the Beast would probably suggest is to go out and buy more cigarettes.

kanamit

Has anyone here seen The Terminator? I'm sure most of you will have. I always remember a quote from that and you could liken it to your Beast:

The Beast's single-minded, uncompromising, amoral mentality is like the terminator's. Can you imagine Kyle and Sarah (the film's protagonists) trying to sit down with Arnie to talk it through? It would not only not work, it would be dangerous.

Thankfully, the similarity ends there since the terminator is a dangerous killing machine and your Beast is the total opposite: it can't do anything without your say so.

Aussiebutterfly

Yes IT is an opportunistic *beep*. Mine tried to use the fact that I'm on a diet and ate a McFlurry last night be a reason I could return to bullimia after around 30 years of it never crossing my mind for a moment. I guess IT thinks if I'm ok with vomiting my junk food up that I'll think I'll be fine to drink and not die next time I vomit blood again.

Luckily I know AVRT and although I was shocked for a moment at this thought I recognised it and said NEVER!!!!!!!! I win

Dalek

This is why "I have no desire to [insert vice]" is addictive voice. Aside from it being little more than a polite way of saying "if I did have a desire, I might very well indulge" (obviously AV), it also suggests that the desire (the Beast) is gone for good. As you saw, though, the Beast will still return for a visit from time to time, even after 30 years. In AVRT, it would be more appropriate to say "I do have a desire, and that desire is not me, but the Beast, which is powerless to fulfill itself."

As long as you recognize and objectify the AV, you will always win. The AV can only make you believe that you are IT, and that IT is you. Without that ruse, it can't really do anything. If you start thinking that you are IT, though, and that "you" want what the Beast wants, the foundations begin to crumble.

GerandTwine

Saying "This weakens AVRT significantly." is incorrect.

AVRT is what it is. A simple logic engine based on the structural model of addiction to be used by a human being based on his/her value system. In AVRT utilizing morality is an essential part of making quitting for good easier. Morality is variable that may wax and wane in different ways with different people in different societies regarding different substance use or problematic habituations.

Trimpey generalizes an American Traditional Family Values morality for the purposes of broad inclusiveness and because it is what he believes.

In an Islamic society, for instance, a man who in a culture with multiple wives and where alcohol abstinence is second nature, the problem of to-smoke-or-not could be culturally more difficult to resolve. The morality of not smoking would involve staying alive longer and setting an example for his many children, not creating second hand smoke in the home, etc. - serious stuff.

Just as we can create the dissociation between I and IT, so can we utilize, magnify, and even create our morality as we choose. Both are very uniquely human capabilities.

I also quit caffeine and then chocolate. The morality around doing that just isn't very profound to begin with (and I'm not Mormon). I created the morality for myself because that made it so much easier.

I first loved and grew to hate what caffeine did to my body and state of mind. That morning euphoria over nothing, overdrinking, temporary quitting, bone and joint aches, horrible headaches, jittery, $4 for a fancy cup - I decided it was all bull*&^*. I knew AVRT intimately, and BINGO, I decided to use it and ended all that crap around caffeine once and for all.

I have learned, due to very rare work demands, that I am able to stay awake for 50 hours straight without serious mental impairment. No caffeine, no stimulants, not even sugar.

So, the real lesson I learned is that when it may seem that the morality around an addiction seems to be weak, AVRT is EXACTLY the CORRECT method to use to solve it quickly.

Dalek

All good points, GT. I should have written that the moral axis makes things much easier when using AVRT. If you don't think there's anything wrong with doing something, and it feels good, even if only temporarily, chances are that you will keep doing it. I don't buy the "it is not a moral issue" stuff (drinking and driving isn't a moral issue?), but it is a personal morality, so as long as you don't harm others, what the surrounding culture believes is irrelevant.

I do know that I don't feel good about smoking, aside from the loss of oxygen and energy that gets worse with time. Just the sneaking around and hiding it from my family, trying not to get caught, like some rat trying to hide from the light. This could be due to the fact that it isn't as socially acceptable anymore, but if I personally didn't feel that there was something "not right" with smoking, then why would I feel so guilty about it?