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Afraid to make big plan

Old 08-22-2012, 07:38 AM
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What has got me fearing my fear, good question. I have a catastrophic drinking incident and then I see the light. I put together periods of sobriety and they are truly the happiest times of my life. Somehow I decide to go back to my old ways. Every time it seems to get more and more depraved. I have behaved truly atrociously. I know exactly how to get out of this, make my big plan and mean it. Herein lies my issue. I'm trying to figure out how to kick my own arse.
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Old 08-22-2012, 08:01 AM
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A lot of "I" in that post, Dalia. Think maybe AV might be behind some of those thoughts and feelings?

The Big Plan is the endgame. But don't neglect AV recognition—that's what made my Big Plan so much simpler to implement.
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Old 08-22-2012, 08:05 AM
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Oh my gosh, Ready and Able, I think you are right.
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Old 08-22-2012, 08:20 AM
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We all do what we do until we cant do it any longer. Im glad that you are thinking about quitting. You see that there is a problem and you want to address it. For me, I had to fall down more times than I want to admit before I threw in the towel. Alcohol is one opponent that I will not battle any longer.
My mantra during the day (Auto-pilot) is the Big Plan.
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:38 AM
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Hey all, new here and new to all this.

Ok, so, my AV is asking me why 100% sobriety has to be my big plan? Why can't I choose to not binge drink more than once a week, ever again, for the rest of my life, and go with that?
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Old 09-27-2012, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Athena1 View Post
Hey all, new here and new to all this.

Ok, so, my AV is asking me why 100% sobriety has to be my big plan? Why can't I choose to not binge drink more than once a week, ever again, for the rest of my life, and go with that?
We're flesh n' blood, not simplistic push-button machines on a timer, and drinking any amount of alcohol for an addicted person is like opening a Pandora's Box of unknown troubles.

Your AV is working with your addictive desire (your Beast) for alcohol in fogging your common sense abilities, and having won you over with hopeful anticipation of success, the rest just follows that the only way to know "for sure" is to test out how well, or not well, moderated drinking can work for YOU. The testing requires more drinking of course... how unsurprising, eh?!

Welcome to SR!
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Old 09-27-2012, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
We're flesh n' blood, not simplistic push-button machines on a timer, and drinking any amount of alcohol for an addicted person is like opening a Pandora's Box of unknown troubles.

Your AV is working with your addictive desire (your Beast) for alcohol in fogging your common sense abilities, and having won you over with hopeful anticipation of success, the rest just follows that the only way to know "for sure" is to test out how well, or not well, moderated drinking can work for YOU. The testing requires more drinking of course... how unsurprising, eh?!

Welcome to SR!

Ha, yeah.
I don't think it's completely fogging over my common sense abilities. I actually have been able to set rules about drinking for myself and obey them, without exception, actually. So, my AV (while still very much the AV) has a point. That's an experiment that very well could work for me. (I never knew it had a name, but I've been aware of the AV since I was a month into drinking. I had ragingly alcoholic parents and knew I needed to be hyper vigilant if I were to ever drink at all.)
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Old 09-27-2012, 05:45 AM
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Another part of my problem is that I self-identify as an actual hedonist. But the sort of hedonist who refrains from many behaviors that give short-term pleasure but are overwhelmingly likely to cause long-tern suffering. Because doing otherwise would be doing hedonism...incorrectly, IMO.
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Old 09-27-2012, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Athena1 View Post
I actually have been able to set rules about drinking for myself and obey them, without exception, actually. So, my AV (while still very much the AV) has a point. That's an experiment that very well could work for me.
No problemo, for me, however...

The quote below is from another thread you started...

Originally Posted by Athena1 View Post
But if I wake up in the morning after drinking whisky and see a little left in the bottle, I have NO willpower to not make myself a couple of mixed drinks for breakfast, which is of course, Not OK. And then I'm only mildly buzzed and the crave for more kicks in, which would involve drunk driving at that point, and I'm good about not doing that, but then I'm just irritated. lol. It's all so stupid. I'm sitting there half drunk and saying to myself "You knew this was going to happen, athena. What's wrong with you?"
I'm sorry, it looks to me like you do have struggles with addictive desire, yeah? Looks like your rules of control are not a for-sure-thing after all...

We can always pretend we are in control...

Sorry, don't mean to be so in-your-face, but these are your own words I'm quoting.
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Old 09-27-2012, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
No problemo, for me, however...

The quote below is from another thread you started...



I'm sorry, it looks to me like you do have struggles with addictive desire, yeah? Looks like your rules of control are not a for-sure-thing after all...

We can always pretend we are in control...

Sorry, don't mean to be so in-your-face, but these are your own words I'm quoting.
No offense taken. I haven't made a rule that I won't finish off the last night's bottle in the morning (on the rare occasions where there are a couple of shots left.) I probably should though, since no drunk driving is one of my rules and not buying liquor two days in a row is a rule, and so I'm just setting myself up to be irritated in an hour if I make a mixed drink for breakfast.

But oh, definitely yes I have massive struggles with addictive desires. Hence the need for all the elaborate rules.
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Athena1 View Post
No offense taken. I haven't made a rule that I won't finish off the last night's bottle in the morning (on the rare occasions where there are a couple of shots left.) I probably should though, since no drunk driving is one of my rules and not buying liquor two days in a row is a rule, and so I'm just setting myself up to be irritated in an hour if I make a mixed drink for breakfast.

But oh, definitely yes I have massive struggles with addictive desires. Hence the need for all the elaborate rules.
Okay.

You haven't made such a rule, yet. And you probably think you should.

Well, all that, to me, is just pure addictive voice. You're, to me, simply justifying whatever you need so as to stay-on-top of your drinking, within your own mind. I think you're just fooling around with yourself, really. We just don't agree with what defines the process you're in, you know?

Massive rules only take away from your freedom of choices, eventually. So, not a good way to go, imo.

Anyways, good to hear you are in agreement you do have massive struggles with addictive desire.

Live and let live.
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Old 09-29-2012, 08:46 AM
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There is one way to deal with addictive desire that makes everything very simple. No rules, no restrictions, just self empowerment. Choose to quit and never drink again, and then act on your choice. Take it off the table and shut the door, lock it, throw away the key.

Believe you can do this, because you can.
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Old 09-29-2012, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
There is one way to deal with addictive desire that makes everything very simple. No rules, no restrictions, just self empowerment. Choose to quit and never drink again, and then act on your choice. Take it off the table and shut the door, lock it, throw away the key.

Believe you can do this, because you can.
I know that this is true.
When I was 18, I was a total pot junkie. I know that's not supposed to happen with marijuana (and I have friends who smoke pot who that hasn't happened to) but I was, like, totally cracked out on pot. I smoked pot first thing in the morning (before even getting up to pee!) smoked pot all day, and it was the last thing I did before going to bed.

I knew it made me stupid, so I decided to quit. The end. I don't smoke pot anymore. haven't for about 15 years now.

I know I could make that choice with alcohol and it would work out the same (I don't drink enough to need medical detox. ) I've taken months and years long breaks from drinking and didn't find it terribly difficult. (I've taken many breaks for months before just to reduce my tolerance and give my liver a rest and prevent medical-detox-level dependency.)

The hedonist in me just doesn't want to make the choice. I like euphoria. I'd do MDMA once a month if MDMA still worked on me (I'm not sure if MDMA just quit working on me or if the real stuff just doesn't exist in my city anymore.) I'd do other drugs if they didn't destroy lives with frightening speed.

I just....don't want to make that decision.
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Old 09-29-2012, 04:32 PM
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I am sure that your AV doesn't want you to make that choice, Athena, but AVs don't get to make choices. That would be you that gets to do that.

You say that you like euphoria. Who doesn't? You aren't different than me in that way. There is euphoria in the sense of relief in the finality of quitting for good. No drug I have ever taken can match that.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Athena1
Hence the need for all the elaborate rules.
The rules will always always continue to change and you must always continue to try and keep up with them. It's not sustainable. You (ahem...your AV) may choose to disagree with me, but it simply is not sustainable over a lifetime for the addicted. Here nor there to me though whether you "buy" it. It's just truth. Something will give eventually.

Oh... the "I'm a hedonist" argument. Yeah...me too. There are a lot more badass ways to induce a euphoric high than to artificially flood the brain with chemicals. C'mon...that takes ZERO skill, creativity, or balls. The hedonist excuse doesn't fly with me. I am one.

I just....don't want to make that decision.
Pardon me if you already said this and I missed it, but have you read the RR book? Check out the definition of "addicted".

I am glad you're here, Athena1. I hope you find what truly makes you happy. Apparently, I come off as harsh (so I've been told). But honestly, there is no greater joy for me than seeing others come out of the darkness. I want that for you, however you find it. If something is causing you pain, I believe you can find a way to resolve it. Best xx
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Old 10-01-2012, 04:52 PM
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Athena,

A true hedonist does what is pleasurable and what has pleasurable consequences. The very fact that you are coming to SR would indicate that you sense something is not right, that something is very wrong with your behavior. Since you don't seem to have an addiction problem, what's up?
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:12 PM
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Hi, Athena, welcome to SR. I can totally relate to your post; I had a lot of the same doubts and conflicting feelings. It was all part of the process of evaluating my relationship with alcohol. I think it's terrific you're taking a look at that, too.

I actually have been able to set rules about drinking for myself and obey them, without exception, actually
I know a lot of alcoholics who could do that. Under AVRT it doesn't actually prove anything; in the big scheme of things, you're still doing the Beast's bidding. The Beast loves it when people set rules. Because every single rule you could possibly create—with the sole exception of the Big Plan—is a rule that supports future drinking. That's the definition of AV, right there.

Me.. I was never that good at sticking to the rules. Luckily, it turned out as much as I dreaded the idea of quitting forever, it turned out to be far easier than any half-measures.

As for the hedonist stuff... I used to see myself as a free spirit, even a bit of a rogue. Now I realize that became a way to rationalize my drinking. It made my addiction sound almost charming. I'm glad I left it behind. I certainly enjoyed the self-image when I was younger, but it doesn't age well, lol...

I totally agree with Soberlicious about the ho-hum reality of drinking and drugging. Another SR friend of mine recently described her decision to quit drinking as the most radical and rebellious thing she could do. I totally get what she means.

Drinking is common, and so are people who drink to excess. Being abstinent and loving it? That's serious badassery.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by readyandable View Post
another sr friend of mine recently described her decision to quit drinking as the most radical and rebellious thing she could do. I totally get what she means.

Drinking is common, and so are people who drink to excess. Being abstinent and loving it? That's serious badassery.
very true!!!!
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
Hi, Athena, welcome to SR. I can totally relate to your post; I had a lot of the same doubts and conflicting feelings. It was all part of the process of evaluating my relationship with alcohol. I think it's terrific you're taking a look at that, too.



I know a lot of alcoholics who could do that. Under AVRT it doesn't actually prove anything; in the big scheme of things, you're still doing the Beast's bidding. The Beast loves it when people set rules. Because every single rule you could possibly create—with the sole exception of the Big Plan—is a rule that supports future drinking. That's the definition of AV, right there.

Me.. I was never that good at sticking to the rules. Luckily, it turned out as much as I dreaded the idea of quitting forever, it turned out to be far easier than any half-measures.

As for the hedonist stuff... I used to see myself as a free spirit, even a bit of a rogue. Now I realize that became a way to rationalize my drinking. It made my addiction sound almost charming. I'm glad I left it behind. I certainly enjoyed the self-image when I was younger, but it doesn't age well, lol...

I totally agree with Soberlicious about the ho-hum reality of drinking and drugging. Another SR friend of mine recently described her decision to quit drinking as the most radical and rebellious thing she could do. I totally get what she means.

Drinking is common, and so are people who drink to excess. Being abstinent and loving it? That's serious badassery.
In the last 7 days, I only drank on one. Insomnia has been a mofo, but all is well other than that.

I've learned this week that my anxiety has simply been a weird hangover symptom thingie/phenomenon. (I drank Wed, and had anxiety sensations [not thoughts] for about 3 hours on Thurs.) If that persists as a permanent feature of drinking no matter how infrequently, I almost definitely will quit for good. That's more time feeling significantly bad than significantly good.

My problem with the big plan still is that I just don't feel ambivalent. I don't feel uncomfortable thinking about never drinking again. I know I could choose that and that it wouldn't be difficult, even. I just really have no desire to make that choice as of right now, although it's always on the table.
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
The rules will always always continue to change and you must always continue to try and keep up with them. It's not sustainable. You (ahem...your AV) may choose to disagree with me, but it simply is not sustainable over a lifetime for the addicted. Here nor there to me though whether you "buy" it. It's just truth. Something will give eventually.
I can show you links if you want, but the best evidence shows that the highest incidence of diagnosable alcoholism peaks in the 20's and then continuously goes down over lifespan (and a vast mojority of the time, without "treatment".) Some of the former alcoholics end up abstinent, and some progress to more moderated drinking.


I'm aware of no high quality evidence that support the notion of the progressive disease theory as being representative of the anything besides the exception rather than the rule.

You don't come off harsh.

I just am not persuaded by "Believe this because I/we say so" arguments. I'm just an evidence junkie.
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