Go Back  SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information > Secular Recovery > Secular Connections
Reload this Page >

effectiveness of the _A model of recovery in comparison to other treatments

Blogs


Notices

effectiveness of the _A model of recovery in comparison to other treatments

Old 12-31-2011, 11:33 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,146
Have to correct myself. Narconon claims an 86% success rate, not 90%

Narconon's success rates

Still high enough for those concerned with high positive stats. The Scientologists say they conducted 3 studies showing incredibly positive results.

Sure, there was some trouble producing anything at all that backed up their claims when required to do so by a German court but hey, they wouldn't lie would they?

'Given the claims of studies showing high success rates, it is strange that when Narconon sought tax rebates in Stuttgart, Germany, they were unable to provide any evidence to support their claims of efficacy. The Stuttgart Verwaltungsgerichtshof (administrative appeals court) found that

"The papers filed by the petitioner offer no evidence of a successful drug withdrawal at the petitioner."


[Decision of the VGH Stuttgart, 10 May 1993, Az: 1 S 3021/92]'

I don't mean to discount in any way the study that the OP hinted was so alarming in this short examination of the lack of general wonderfulness of recovery studies. I do hope he/she is not sensitive to the truth.
langkah is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to langkah For This Useful Post:
FT (12-31-2011)
Old 12-31-2011, 01:19 PM
  # 22 (permalink)  
Member of SMART Recovery
 
onlythetruth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
Narcanon is a whole different matter and IMO shouldn't be mentioned in any serious discussion of recovery options. It's lunacy, plain and simple.
onlythetruth is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to onlythetruth For This Useful Post:
FT (12-31-2011), Lenina (02-09-2012)
Old 12-31-2011, 02:07 PM
  # 23 (permalink)  
Always, Never & Forever
 
DrivenHeart85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest
Posts: 313
Originally Posted by onlythetruth View Post
For example, just this week, SAMHSA published a working definition of recovery (see SAMHSA Blog Blog Archive SAMHSA--it does not say "recovery consists of being a member of Program A forever"; instead it defines recovery as:

A process of change through which individuals improve their health and wellness, live a self-directed life, and strive to reach their full potential.

and includes the following as guiding principles:

Recovery is person-driven: Self-determination and self-direction are the foundations for recovery as individuals define their own life goals and design their unique path(s).

Recovery occurs via many pathways: Individuals are unique with distinct needs, strengths, preferences, goals, culture, and backgrounds, including trauma experiences, that affect and determine their pathway(s) to recovery. Abstinence is the safest approach for those with substance use disorders.
I always have imaginary arguments in my head with my former sponsor and this is always the stuff I wanted to say. So many times I was told I was just like everyone else and I needed the same thing that everyone else needed. I almost passed out from frustration. In my opinion, whoever at SAMHSA put that info above together needs a giant hug, a large parade and maybe a continent renamed in their honor. LOL In fact, I'd consider having that carved into my gravestone when I die. Lots of pent up frustration from this girl. lol
DrivenHeart85 is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to DrivenHeart85 For This Useful Post:
andypandypdx (01-10-2012), FT (12-31-2011), lilac0721 (02-08-2012), onlythetruth (12-31-2011), topspin (12-31-2011), Zencat (01-30-2012)
Old 12-31-2011, 02:59 PM
  # 24 (permalink)  
Member of SMART Recovery
 
onlythetruth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
Originally Posted by DrivenHeart85 View Post
I always have imaginary arguments in my head with my former sponsor and this is always the stuff I wanted to say. So many times I was told I was just like everyone else and I needed the same thing that everyone else needed. I almost passed out from frustration. In my opinion, whoever at SAMHSA put that info above together needs a giant hug, a large parade and maybe a continent renamed in their honor. LOL In fact, I'd consider having that carved into my gravestone when I die. Lots of pent up frustration from this girl. lol
I actually HAVE said this stuff to my former sponsor. She's a very nice woman and we're still friends. At first, she resisted, but over time she's come to see things differently. She hasn't changed her mind about what helps HER, but knowing me has forced her to acknowledge that, at a minimum, not everyone who stops going to the same recovery group she does is signing their own death warrant.
onlythetruth is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to onlythetruth For This Useful Post:
anew (01-01-2012), DrivenHeart85 (12-31-2011), FT (12-31-2011), PaperDolls (01-30-2012), topspin (12-31-2011)
Old 01-28-2012, 01:47 PM
  # 25 (permalink)  
Member
 
UofI2008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alabama
Posts: 226
Originally Posted by DrivenHeart85 View Post
I always have imaginary arguments in my head with my former sponsor and this is always the stuff I wanted to say. So many times I was told I was just like everyone else and I needed the same thing that everyone else needed. I almost passed out from frustration. In my opinion, whoever at SAMHSA put that info above together needs a giant hug, a large parade and maybe a continent renamed in their honor. LOL In fact, I'd consider having that carved into my gravestone when I die. Lots of pent up frustration from this girl. lol
Right there with you on that one....
UofI2008 is offline  
Old 01-30-2012, 07:53 AM
  # 26 (permalink)  
☯ ⓌⒾⓁⓁ☯
 
Zencat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 8,279
Blog Entries: 12
Originally Posted by DrivenHeart85
I always have imaginary arguments in my head with my former sponsor and this is always the stuff I wanted to say. So many times I was told I was just like everyone else and I needed the same thing that everyone else needed. I almost passed out from frustration. In my opinion, whoever at SAMHSA put that info above together needs a giant hug, a large parade and maybe a continent renamed in their honor. LOL In fact, I'd consider having that carved into my gravestone when I die. Lots of pent up frustration from this girl. lol
The SAMHSA blog is spot on. They need to name the Sun in SAMHSA's honor. As the blog illuminates the darkened shadows of concrete thinking that towers above all the other viable recovery methods LOL.
Zencat is offline  
Old 02-06-2012, 01:53 AM
  # 27 (permalink)  
Member
 
BackToSquareOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,782
Some interesting comments in Psychology Today on SAMSHA's new guidlines.

The Meaning of Recovery Has Changed, You Just Don't Know It | Psychology Today
BackToSquareOne is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BackToSquareOne For This Useful Post:
jamdls (02-09-2012), Zencat (02-11-2012)
Old 02-06-2012, 08:57 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
Member
 
UofI2008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alabama
Posts: 226
The definition never mentions "powerlessness." In fact, it points in quite the opposite direction: "Recovery is person-driven. Self-determination and self-direction are the foundations for recovery as individuals define their own life goals and design their unique path(s) towards those goals." Also, "Recovery is built on the multiple capacities, strengths, talents, coping abilities, resources, and inherent value of each individual. Recovery pathways are highly personalized."
I love this.
UofI2008 is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to UofI2008 For This Useful Post:
lilac0721 (02-08-2012), Zencat (02-08-2012)
Old 02-08-2012, 02:56 PM
  # 29 (permalink)  
Member
 
lilac0721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 920
I have found people who are like me and it seems that there is success with programs other than the "right" one as someone above called it.

I have found my people! Amen to that! Great thread.
lilac0721 is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lilac0721 For This Useful Post:
newby1961 (02-09-2012), topspin (02-08-2012)
Old 02-08-2012, 02:59 PM
  # 30 (permalink)  
Member
 
lilac0721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 920
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Some interesting comments in Psychology Today on SAMSHA's new guidlines.

The Meaning of Recovery Has Changed, You Just Don't Know It | Psychology Today
Great article. I have read a couple of Stanton Peele's books, including The Truth About Addiction and Recovery. It is refreshing to see that SAMSHA is finally getting the message.
lilac0721 is offline  
Old 02-08-2012, 07:37 PM
  # 31 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Some interesting comments in Psychology Today on SAMSHA's new guidlines.

The Meaning of Recovery Has Changed, You Just Don't Know It | Psychology Today
I can't help but notice that there is absolutely nothing in SAMSHA's working definition of addiction recovery, which took a year to formulate, about actually quitting getting drunk and/or high. They even say that there is "no set time requirement" for recovery, which effectively endorses endless procrastination on that crucial task.

Working Definition of Recovery

Recovery is a process of change whereby individuals work to improve their own health and wellness and to live a meaningful life in a community of their choice while striving to achieve their full potential....

There is no set time requirement for recovery as it is recognized that this is an individualized process whereby each person’s journey of recovery is unique and whereby each person in recovery chooses supports, ranging from clinical treatment to peer services that facilitate recovery.
I'm going to be the odd man out here, but I think this "working definition" is fundamentally lacking. How about this for a working definition of recovery?

Addiction Recovery:
Secure, permanent abstinence. No more getting drunk or high, ever.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
lilac0721 (02-09-2012)
Old 02-09-2012, 02:04 AM
  # 32 (permalink)  
Member
 
BackToSquareOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,782
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
I can't help but notice that there is absolutely nothing in SAMSHA's working definition of addiction recovery, which took a year to formulate, about actually quitting getting drunk and/or high. They even say that there is "no set time requirement" for recovery, which effectively endorses endless procrastination on that crucial task.



I'm going to be the odd man out here, but I think this "working definition" is fundamentally lacking. How about this for a working definition of recovery?

Addiction Recovery:
Secure, permanent abstinence. No more getting drunk or high, ever.


I think that since the beginning of time people have sought out altered states of consciousness, a desire to change the way they feel. Most won't give up an addiction until the pain outweighs the pleasure. Is there really any magical formula though that will bring a person to that place?

Once a person truely wants to quit more than they want to use it's not that hard to break the addiction. Any method, including no method at all will work as long as it keeps the person off the substance long enough for the neural pathways and brain chemistry to normalize. The cravings, withdrawal symptoms and all the associated discomfort will fade into oblivion given enough time.

The fly in the ointment of course is you need a method to keep the person centered in their resolve to not restart the addiction again and again. I believe that the brain remembers the addiction and will readdict to the substance much easier than one that has never been addicted. I prefer methods such as Mindfulness, AVERT and others that deal with the problem at its source which is the brain/mind.

So then, the idea of "Secure, permanent abstinence. No more getting drunk or high, ever" sounds good to me if you can figure out a way to stop people from seeking altered states of consciousness. There are other ways to change the way we feel but substances are the quick and dirty way to get the job done.
BackToSquareOne is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BackToSquareOne For This Useful Post:
lillyknitting (02-09-2012), newby1961 (02-09-2012)
Old 02-09-2012, 03:37 AM
  # 33 (permalink)  
lillyknitting
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Loughton, Essex, England
Posts: 638
The only cure for alcoholism is to stop drinking. Permanently.
lillyknitting is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to lillyknitting For This Useful Post:
newby1961 (02-09-2012)
Old 02-09-2012, 06:14 AM
  # 34 (permalink)  
Member
 
lilac0721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 920
I think it's a huge step toward acknowledging that meetings and steps and powerlessness don't work for everyone.

I mean seriously, people were quitting booze and drugs before the whole step/powerless process was invented in the 1930s, and lots of people have been quitting without that process since. Getting sober is just not a one size fits all solution.

Personally, I've been in a "process" the past few years that now has led me to seek what TU points out: no more drinking. ever. But I had to go through different methods to decide to just freaking quit already.
lilac0721 is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to lilac0721 For This Useful Post:
newby1961 (02-09-2012), topspin (02-11-2012), Zencat (02-09-2012)
Old 02-09-2012, 09:50 AM
  # 35 (permalink)  
Member
 
jamdls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 2,405
Blog Entries: 2
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Some interesting comments in Psychology Today on SAMSHA's new guidlines.

The Meaning of Recovery Has Changed, You Just Don't Know It | Psychology Today
Good article I totally agree with this, I've always felt that recovering is not a 1 size fits all -- the steps don't work for everyone and for me personally if I had stuck with going to meetings and steps I probably would have gone back to drinking as I found it all wrong for me and depressing; many people need to 'blame' their problem on outside sources whether 'addictive voice' or 'their disease' etc but many don't, like myself. I drank too much- I stopped by dealing with the issues in my life that led to my drinking-- problem solved. Over time I gained respect and love for myself and lost the desire to harm myself.
jamdls is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jamdls For This Useful Post:
lilac0721 (02-09-2012), newby1961 (02-09-2012)
Old 02-09-2012, 11:04 AM
  # 36 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by lilac0721 View Post
Personally, I've been in a "process" the past few years that now has led me to seek what TU points out: no more drinking. ever.
The pernicious "process of recovery" is a little like quicksand. It gives the illusion that you are on solid ground, but instead of getting better, you are actually sinking.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
lilac0721 (02-10-2012), newby1961 (02-09-2012)
Old 02-09-2012, 11:12 AM
  # 37 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Most won't give up an addiction until the pain outweighs the pleasure. Is there really any magical formula though that will bring a person to that place?
Yes, there is: good old-fashioned pain and suffering, or the threat of more pain and suffering. Yes, contrary to the popular recovery lore, ultimatums do indeed work. By far one of the most effective is when one's employer gives the ultimatum, since an employer can and usually will take a far more detached, matter-of-fact attitude than friends or family would.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
newby1961 (02-09-2012)
Old 02-09-2012, 11:22 AM
  # 38 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by jamdls View Post
.... many people need to 'blame' their problem on outside sources whether 'addictive voice' or 'their disease' etc but many don't, like myself. I drank too much- I stopped by dealing with the issues in my life that led to my drinking...
Although in AVRT, the addictive voice (AV) is considered the prime mover, there is no "blaming" one's addiction on the AV. There are also no "issues" that account for the addiction, or that can be used to justify or explain it. AVRT identifies addiction itself as willful, purposeful, immoral conduct, in spite of one's own better judgement. It strips you of any and all excuses, and you take a direct, moral hit for each and every single time you got drunk or high knowing that it was dead wrong for you to do so.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
newby1961 (02-09-2012)
Old 02-10-2012, 07:23 AM
  # 39 (permalink)  
lillyknitting
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Loughton, Essex, England
Posts: 638
Ultimatums

Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
Yes, there is: good old-fashioned pain and suffering, or the threat of more pain and suffering. Yes, contrary to the popular recovery lore, ultimatums do indeed work. By far one of the most effective is when one's employer gives the ultimatum, since an employer can and usually will take a far more detached, matter-of-fact attitude than friends or family would.
My husband used to cut up my knitwear. He also cut up my wedding dress. He threatened to cut up my designer handbags next time. That worked.
lillyknitting is offline  
Old 02-10-2012, 07:54 AM
  # 40 (permalink)  
Member
 
Charon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,758
I would like to point out that any statistics coming from AA must necessarily be nonsence. There is no way to collect accurate data from an anonymous population.

I would further point out that success rate itself is a nebulous concept. Is it abstinance for 90 days, a year, 10 years, or forever. For cancer treatment, organ transplant, etc., statistics are always stated as a number of years of continued health/life.

Stories abound in AA meetings of people with 10, 30, 30, 40, or more years of sobriety that "went back out" and died from the disease. Were they successful? The only meaningful measure is forever, which also cannot be measured, at least not without extreme difficulty.
Charon is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:20 PM.