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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 3

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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 3

Old 02-13-2012, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post



There is no need to be bothered by those thoughts. They already passed. You just need to add the experience to your knowledge base, and stay in your right mind the next time, objectifying the AV if it pipes up. The AV is persistent, but it ultimately has only so many variations on a theme that it can resort to, which puts the odds in your favor long term. As always, set your confidence level for lifetime abstinence arbitrarily at 100% — all self-doubt is Addictive Voice.
You're right on all counts above. Thank you so much for your feedback - it was very helpful to me actually. I'm glad you're "here".
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:53 AM
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AVRT and moderation

Here's a potentially interesting facet to AVRT; I don't believe it's been discussed yet.

I wonder if many lurkers here are contemplating using AVRT for moderation. What if one were to create a Big Plan:

I will never drink during the week—and I will never change my mind.
On face value, it seems like a good idea. But would it work?

I don't ask this for myself; as someone who will never drink again the idea is pure Beast and therefore totally academic. However, in Googling AVRT I did find a web page that suggests such a notion. To me it seems like a bad idea because:
  1. If you need to go to these lengths to moderate, you are most likely better off abstaining
  2. You would keep your Beast extremely active and alive if it was getting regular fixes

I thought this might be worth discussing since I'm sure it crosses some people's minds who are new to AVRT.

I know for personal experience, I bought the Allen Carr book with the intention of using it for one month only. Suffice to say it does not work like that.
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:50 AM
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AVRT Tips

I posted these responses in another thread, but I think they are important to this general discussion of AVRT, so I am posting links to them here for reference.
  1. Stream of Consciousness / Conveyor Belt Analogy —

  2. Proximal vs. Distal Causes in AVRT —
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Old 02-14-2012, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by kanamit View Post
I wonder if many lurkers here are contemplating using AVRT for moderation.
You don't need to wonder.

Originally Posted by kanamit View Post
What if one were to create a Big Plan:
I will never drink during the week—and I will never change my mind.
On face value, it seems like a good idea. But would it work?
No, it wouldn't work, not once the Beast has been born. Moderation is like foreplay to the Beast, just enough to get turned on, but not quite enough to get completely drunk, which is what it really wants. The Beast likes the idea of moderation, however, because with just a few drinks, your judgement will be impaired, and it will likely get the upper hand on you. The Beast also likes the idea of tentative abstinence — quitting temporarily to see how it goes — because, as you note, that just keeps it alive and kicking with hope. Ideas of tentative abstinence or moderation are Addictive Voice, pure and simple, since both blatantly suggest future drinking.

This is discussed in "The Rationale for Abstinence" on pages 123-126 of RR: TNC, which covers The Crossover Effect, and in "Moderation, anyone?" on pages 80-82 of The Art of AVRT.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:20 AM
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Thanks for that.

I know RR:TNC does cover the subject of moderation but I figured a lot of people reading these threads have yet to get the book. I doubt I can link to it but when you Google AVRT there is a page that ranks quite highly about using AVRT to achieve alcohol-free days. Googling something you're new to is a given these days; I just didn't want people to be led astray.

As always, you've answered it 100 times better than I could.

I thought perhaps using something as absolute as AVRT for moderation is like trying to demolish a multi-story building but wanting to keep one of the upper rooms intact.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kanamit View Post
I know RR:TNC does cover the subject of moderation but I figured a lot of people reading these threads have yet to get the book. I doubt I can link to it but when you Google AVRT there is a page that ranks quite highly about using AVRT to achieve alcohol-free days. Googling something you're new to is a given these days; I just didn't want people to be led astray.
I know which page you are talking about, from a harm reduction site which is not against controlled drinking, or even replacing one drug with another. They suggest a 'modified' version of AVRT in order to use it only on your 'off' days. It sounds clever on the surface, and no doubt many people who see the word 'never' consider doing that very thing, but given the nature of AVRT, it won't work too well. It does show that RR is not entirely wrong in not letting others officially offer services called 'AVRT', though — people will inevitably change it to suit their own vision of recovery. Good topic, though.
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Old 02-15-2012, 03:47 PM
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Yay me. I now have in my hands "Rational Recovery" and "The Small Book".

It will be cool to contribute to this thread from a first hand experience.

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Old 02-15-2012, 04:05 PM
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A note on "The Small Book"

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
I now have in my hands "Rational Recovery" and "The Small Book".
Note that Rational Recovery no longer uses or recommends "The Small Book," which only contains about 25 pages of very rudimentary AVRT. The "Rational Recovery: TNC" book is meant to be a replacement for TSB, and explains AVRT in detail.

Originally Posted by Jack Trimpey
Do not rely on the advice in The Small Book, as we no longer recommended it for people with serious addictions. I am the author of both books and can assure you that The Small Book, although well-written and interesting, falls far short in comparison to the later and better book, Rational Recovery.
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Old 02-16-2012, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
Notice that the AV addressed you in the second person here, which is significant. When IT talks to you this way, change the pronouns around, and stay in your right mind. Remember also the law of attribution. For example, just changing what the AV said as follows should make it fall silent very quickly.
"Look at all the fun IT is missing out on. I bet IT is upset. Poor thing. I'm not missing out on anything, though, because I never use, and since addictive desire is not me, but the Beast, I don't even want to use."
I really like this. Did this to my beast the other day. It's amazing what you can do if you apply these principles even when the beast is pretty quite and not strong in his attempts. I could walk into a liquor store and not have a problem now. I don't drink, ever. Period. No questions, I just don't.
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Old 02-16-2012, 02:32 PM
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I made my big plan today. Yay. I appreciate all the pages of discussion, you guys are prolific! I have always believed that I need to live in reality and part of that is being able to be around my previous DOC without needing it or it bothering me. I did this for a long time quite easily. I was trying to work out what changed. I think 1) I had never heard of the AV concept and so was not aware of how to handle it 2) I got maybe too confident? The beast found a way in, that sneaky bugger. I used to think I needed to deal with my inner demons before I could really be fixed, but I think that is also the beast/AV talking in my ear. I like the idea of myself as a forever non drinker. I will never drink again. Its a hard sentence to type at first as my little voice (as I like to call it) whispers, wow are you sure? But the techniques I have read from you all were what I used to practice but I forgot. Thank you for reminding me and sharing the tools that have helped so many of you. In some ways it seems so simple.
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Old 02-16-2012, 02:55 PM
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ok, I wanted to ask something too. In my quest to become a non drinker I went to many different councilors. One told me that if I put myself in a situation where there is alcohol that I am deliberately putting myself in a situation where I can relapse. not today or tomorrow perhaps but I am making that choice or I am following that voice to make bad decisions and come closer to the abyss. To me once I make the decision to be a forever non drinker, where I go should be irrelevant, If I am in that situation and my beast/av starts talking I just need to tell it to shut up. Do you think that subconsciously I could be setting myself up for failure? It was just an interesting perspective and one I don't think I believe now I have thought it through. I would just need to ignore the voice... or am I justifying unwise behavior as that person suggested. Thoughts?
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CleoAK View Post
I made my big plan today. Yay. I appreciate all the pages of discussion, you guys are prolific!
Yes, it would seem we are indeed prolific. We'll probably have to start "Part 4" very soon.

Originally Posted by CleoAK View Post
In my quest to become a non drinker I went to many different councilors. One told me that if I put myself in a situation where there is alcohol that I am deliberately putting myself in a situation where I can relapse.
With AVRT, you'll be able to walk through a distillery or sleep with a bottle of gin under your pillow if you have good reason to do so, without any fear of 'relapsing'.

Originally Posted by CleoAK View Post
If I am in that situation and my beast/av starts talking I just need to tell it to shut up.
This is the common reaction to the AV, but you'll soon learn that the more you talk back to it, the more you'll struggle, and it won't accomplish anything. There are a couple notable exceptions, but in general, with AVRT, we try not to talk back to the AV. Get the RR book and read through it, as well as this thread from the beginning. That will answer many of your questions.

Originally Posted by CleoAK View Post
Do you think that subconsciously I could be setting myself up for failure?
Short answer — No.

Long answer — Only if you fail to recognize the AV.
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by UofI2008 View Post
I really like this. Did this to my beast the other day. It's amazing what you can do if you apply these principles even when the beast is pretty quite and not strong in his attempts. I could walk into a liquor store and not have a problem now. I don't drink, ever. Period. No questions, I just don't.
You seem to be making very good progress, UoI. Believe it or not, eventually, you won't have to do much of this at all — it will become second nature, almost reflexive. It may seem from some of my posts that I still talk in my head all the time, but I actually have to put some effort into 'remembering' what it used to feel like in the beginning when responding on here. These days, when the AV pops up, I usually just think 'Beast' and the AV falls silent. Instant detachment.
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:34 PM
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Hey guys,
Okay, so I'm happily reading "Rational Recovery: The New Cure." Got a question:

Originally Posted by Rational Recovery:TNC --pg 41
"When you doubt AVRT you are only doubting yourself and your own ability to quit your addiction, right now and for all time."
I'm not sure I agree with that, as yet anyways. Reminds me of my struggle to come to my own understanding of an HP -- and in AA it was suggested to me that half-measures don't work kinda thing, you know?

I had to fully believe or I risked a relapse I was told -- well, I discovered a way around my having to be "fully believing" that my HP had to be a literal GOD. I wont get into that right now, but the above quote reminds me of those days.

Question: Why and how is a doubt in AVRT the same as a doubt in myself?

I'll continue reading of course, and I may find the answer in the book itself, but thought I would share this because it reminds me of the BB Thumpers, LOL.

Cheers!
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:12 PM
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Thanks for the responses TU. I have ordered the book. I wish they did the ebook. I like instant things! I think for someone who is so used to other methods of thinking about this, the I will never drink again mindset is fearful and scary to think about at first, especially in regards to failure. For me I like the absolute of it. However it is easy to have those niggling doubts that ask why this time is different. I have been told so many times that relapse is part of the road to recovery. Its definitely a different way of thinking.
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Question: Why and how is a doubt in AVRT the same as a doubt in myself?
This should become more clear as you read through the book, but in the logic of AVRT, all self-doubt in one's ability to abstain unconditionally and for life is Addictive Voice. I alluded to this way back when April was having doubts about AVRT, although I didn't know that I got it from page 41.

AVRT is patterned after the Addictive Voice itself — which is ruthless and unforgiving in order to maintain the addiction — effectively matching the Addictive Voice point for point. As such, AVRT is also ruthless and unforgiving towards anything that sustains the addiction. Self-doubt in one's ability to beat the addiction necessarily helps to maintain it. It also obviously suggests future drinking/using, which, by definition, is AV.

Originally Posted by "Rational Recovery: TNC" — (©) by Jack Trimpey, Page 128

AVRT is a voracious mind-set that devours anything that poses as a condition of lifetime abstinence...
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Old 02-16-2012, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CleoAK View Post
I have ordered the book. I wish they did the ebook. I like instant things!
Yes, it would be nice if they sold it as an e-book for the Amazon Kindle, but that is usually up to the publisher. In the meantime, you have the crash course, the excerpts available online, and about 1450 posts in these threads to go through.

Originally Posted by CleoAK View Post
I think for someone who is so used to other methods of thinking about this, the I will never drink again mindset is fearful and scary to think about at first, especially in regards to failure.
This, of course, is just your Addictive Voice. The AV is saying "never say never to the possible future use of alcohol and drugs," because it will indeed be very scary — for the Beast.

Originally Posted by CleoAK View Post
For me I like the absolute of it. However it is easy to have those niggling doubts that ask why this time is different. I have been told so many times that relapse is part of the road to recovery. Its definitely a different way of thinking.
Yes, it definitely is different, but that is a good thing. AVRT is a kick ass and take names, 'recovery with an attitude' approach that goes straight for the jugular and gets the job done. It has a bit of a steep learning curve, but only initially, and it quickly builds momentum. You certainly have to spend some time in learning it, but the amount of time it takes to recover with AVRT is a drop in the bucket compared to other approaches.
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Old 02-17-2012, 05:41 AM
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Thought I'd check in...

It's interesting I havent been noticing beast activity much recently, seems to be getting less and less since having made the big plan-
ACE?

Anyhow of course we should not get complacent and be ready for beast attacks with the AVRT militia waiting in the wing but it's definitely noticeably less recently.

I'm thinking though its like if your enemy knew you were heavily fortified they wouldn't bother attacking after a while.
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Old 02-17-2012, 08:36 AM
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I_am_A,

Keep in mind that recognition allways follows an incident of Beast activity. This means that AVRT is passive, and does not require defensive manuevering. You can think of AVRT as a Chess game, where the Beast plays white, and makes the first move.

You play black, but instead of countering with another move, you simply pull the game board out from under the Beast, and refuse to play. Of course, the Beast will go back and set the game board up again, hoping that you'll play at a later time.

What you are experiencing is not uncommon. The Beast has taken a beating from your Big Plan and your subsequent refusals to play the game. You can bet that It is busy setting up the chess pieces again, though, so to speak. If you want though, you can play dirty and attack your Beast while it's down.

Pull up some YouTube videos of movie scenes where someone is having a blast getting high on your favorite stuff. The Beast probably won't be able to resist getting excited and piping up. When it does, switch into your right mind, re-affirm your Big Plan, drive the Beast into the ground, kick it in the ribs, and stomp on its head with both feet.
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Old 02-17-2012, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by CleoAK
One told me that if I put myself in a situation where there is alcohol that I am deliberately putting myself in a situation where I can relapse
.
I suppose it's a possible theory raised in a clinical setting....as far as accepting it as fact...um, no.
I don't drink. I am around alcohol and people drinking it quite often. I have no desire to drink. If I ever have a passing thought, it's just that....a weird, out-of-the-blue thought that requires no action, reaction, examination, dwelling, etc. It is what it is. It came, it went.

IamA, I have no working knowledge of chess, but I agree with TU about not engaging with the AV. I often use a tennis analogy. If I stop lobbing the ball back, just put my racket down and walk away, the game is over.
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