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This is AVRT. Recovery with an attitude. I'm not saying that to puff up my chest or toot my own horn. It's just how I do life. I'm 60 years old and a senior student at a local university. I will be graduating with honors next June. I was told I wouldn't be able to walk because of my bone on bone arthritis, at the worst of which I couldn't even manage to push the cart through the grocery store. I had double knee replacements in 2009, and now I ride my bike 30 miles at a pop, and I walk probably 10 miles a week on campus and wherever I feel like going. F*ck that sh*t! If I sound angry, well I'm really not. That stupid ortho surgery, combined with my ignorance of the ability of opiates to hook me, got me addicted to opiates for two years, after 20 years of being free of alcohol, my previous DOC. Well, I'd been to meetings years ago and they just weren't my gig. I had lots of excuses and great reasons to continue on opiates, which had taken over my life not unlike alcohol had once done. So, I decided to cop an attitude. I had been looking around me at all the other people who seemed to be able to get through life without opiates. I had to make a decision to take control of my life again, using techniques I had always done with every other thing I've succeeded at. "I AM NOT AN OPIATE ADDICT" became my inner mantra for awhile, followed by a much calmer, this-is-just-me attitude -- "I am a non-opiate user". That simple little phrase is all I need, any time my Beast or Addictive Voice pop up to remind me they are still there. This was all before I discovered AVRT, but after reading the Crash Course and other AVRT I realized what they were doing was akin to my own personal "program". So yeah. I've got an attitude. Good. FT |
Oh TU, if it were last week, that'd probably be the correct assumption that I'm looking for a cop out reason to drink. I'm really actually looking for some hope that you don't need to hit any sort of rock bottom or have alcohol kick the crap out of you some more...because I really can't take anymore of it, kind of at that "desperation" point lately. My curiosity is to see if people who get "bit by their Beast worse" so-to-speak before they stop drinking, end up having an easier time dissociating or even telling off the AV. What makes me wonder about this is the part about viewing your addiction as immoral to give an extra kick in the ass to the beast. If you ran into a severe moral conflict, such as maybe driving drunk with your child in the car before you decided to stop drinking, it would lead me to assume that telling off the AV would be much easier. ...and if this were true, it might explain why it seems I could not control the AV(not that I haven't done immoral things due to my drinking, just nothing I've had hardcore consequences for) and that I should consider a different method to achieve abstinence rather than get back into AVRT again. |
Or maybe like the book says, the first few weeks of using the method, you will be constantly harassed by the AV but if you make it through then it'll get easier. And now I'm turning this thread into a "Where did April go wrong?" discussion...jeeze, I need a nap. lol |
The NOSEBLEED method of quitting drinking....
Originally Posted by AprilMay1895
(Post 3130083)
Can I ask whoever is using AVRT...was there a motivating factor that made you start using AVRT? Like, did something substantial happen in your life related to your alcohol abuse that initiated your desire to stop drinking immediately? As opposed to saying, you were active in your drinking, only slightly agitated with your drinking habits and thought you should maybe quit and one day you wandered into a book store, read the RR book and BAM, just stopped drinking out of nowhere for the next 5 years? I'm wondering if there's something that you experienced or something that happened to you, that made you severely want to stop drinking and before you chose AVRT as your method. I guess in AA speak...(sometimes still the only language I know) I'd mean did you have a "spiritual experience" or "hit your bottom" before you decided to use AVRT as your recovery method? For him, it was a nosebleed. Seriously. He'd been drinking like usual for years and years, trying to quit here and there, succeeding for a few weeks, then BAM back to the wine. One day, he got a nosebleed. I mean A NOSEBLEED. He ended up at the ENT doctor's outpatient surgical clinic getting packing in his nose. His nosebleed lasted 4 days before it stopped. He lost a LOT of blood. There was just something about that nosebleed. I don't think he believes that drinking made him get the nosebleed. I think it was just a wakeup call that we are all mortal. That he could die. And he didn't want to die a drunk. FT |
Originally Posted by AprilMay1895
(Post 3130167)
Oh TU, if it were last week, that'd probably be the correct assumption that I'm looking for a cop out reason to drink. I'm really actually looking for some hope that you don't need to hit any sort of rock bottom or have alcohol kick the crap out of you some more...because I really can't take anymore of it, kind of at that "desperation" point lately. YOU DO NOT NEED TO HIT ANY SORT OF ROCK BOTTOM IN ORDER TO QUIT.
Originally Posted by AprilMay1895
(Post 3130167)
My curiosity is to see if people who get "bit by their Beast worse" so-to-speak before they stop drinking, end up having an easier time dissociating or even telling off the AV.
Originally Posted by AprilMay1895
(Post 3130167)
What makes me wonder about this is the part about viewing your addiction as immoral to give an extra kick in the ass to the beast. If you ran into a severe moral conflict, such as maybe driving drunk with your child in the car before you decided to stop drinking, it would lead me to assume that telling off the AV would be much easier.
Originally Posted by AprilMay1895
(Post 3130167)
...and if this were true, it might explain why it seems I could not control the AV(not that I haven't done immoral things due to my drinking, just nothing I've had hardcore consequences for) and that I should consider a different method to achieve abstinence rather than get back into AVRT again. |
Functions of the Addictive Voice Since many people have difficulty recognizing the various forms that the Addictive Voice can take, here is a more comprehensive list taken from "The Art of AVRT®" by Jack Trimpey. Remember the definitions. Beast :
Originally Posted by The Art of AVRT®, Pages 124-125 Functions of the Addictive Voice
Excerpted from "The Art of AVRT®" by Jack Trimpey Copyright © 2010 by Jack Trimpey All Rights Reserved |
Originally Posted by failedtaper
(Post 3130151)
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
(Post 3130082)
This is AVRT. Recovery with an attitude. Very good indeed. :) |
Originally Posted by AprilMay1895
(Post 3130167)
I'm really actually looking for some hope that you don't need to hit any sort of rock bottom or have alcohol kick the crap out of you some more... |
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
(Post 3129685)
In AVRT, we actually practice craving on purpose in order to bring the Beast out from hiding, expose it, and learn that it is genuinely powerless. There are a few sections in the "RR:TNC" book that address this, specifically, the "Shifting" exercise on page 202, "Aggressive Listening" on page 205, and "Attack Your Beast" on page 206. The "Relapse Anxiety Grid" on Page 190 is useful for these exercises, and it might be a good idea to bookmark the page with a paperclip to refer back to. The shifting exercises are a radical departure from AV anxiety. In AVRT-based recovery, we don’t have relapse anxiety, because it is always an example of the AV itself, and we don't fear the AV; we welcome it as a sign of robust health. This is very different from traditional approaches, and may sound counter-intuitive at first, but it is what will allow you to walk free, without fear of triggers or slipping. If you are having relapse anxiety or are afraid of the Beast, try the exercises in the book. I have never done this in the past and while I cannot explain why, in my gut I feel this exercise helped me in the end. |
Originally Posted by failedtaper
(Post 3130017)
Hi TU, Awhile back you told me that my "cold duck method" of quitting alcohol was something akin to "shifting". Here's the way it worked, for those who didn't see what I had said about how I quit. I used to drink a couple of bottles of cold duck every night after work. I'd buy one bottle on the way home with the intent to drink one, then go back out and get the other one with my tail between my legs, when I couldn't stop at the one. One day, I bought my bottle on the way home, but I'd been trying to quit drinking for years, and I'd especially been thinking about trying to quit again for the prior few days. So when I got home, instead of opening the bottle instantly, I put it in the fridge. I told myself I could have it at any time I pleased. Then I had dinner, and that night I left the bottle alone. I left the bottle in the fridge where I could see it right away when I opened the door, and every night thereafter I'd look at the bottle and not open it. I'd eat dinner and go back and look at it. Every night, my plan was to drink it after I ate IF I couldn't tolerate not drinking that night, but I promised myself to ask myself if I REALLY wanted it before drinking it. The days wore on, and the bottle stayed put. After a few weeks, the plan to drink after dinner dissolved away. After a few months, I didn't deliberately go look at the bottle continually any more, but I knew it was there. Sometime after a year of the bottle being in the fridge, it disappeared, but I can't remember who gave it way or threw it away. I couldn't bring myself to pour it out, but I no longer used the excuse of "how can you waste a perfectly good bottle of cold duck" to drink it. That was over 20 years ago. I've had more recent failings of short duration than the booze (which was 15+ years), and I did not risk this method for my self-recovery from oxycodone. The oxycodone was a bigger hook than alcohol for me, so I set up a 100% no-access situation with it. I think perhaps now I could put myself in the position of having oxycodone around, but there would be no reason to do that. I am exposed to schedule drugs in my profession, so I suppose I am "practicing" a little in that way, because I never feel the temptation to use in my professional life. FT Of course back then I knew nothing of AVRT but I was simply planning on how to beat the AV. I knew the conversation in my head would go something like: AV: You know if you dont go to the store now they will be closed and then you will suffer badly if you change your mind and decide you need to smoke. Me: But then I might give in. I shouldnt go. It worked for me at the time. My big mistake back then though was that I only planned to quit for 21 days. That was eleven years ago to the day today. The experience is helping me today. I realize that it is these insane conversations that I must deal with and I already have tools to shut down the AV. Some people are telling me to stay away from smoking circles but I have ignored them up to this point. I am not changing behaviors that I liked. I still go around smokers at work and at meetings because I am not going to play this game of having to punish myself by changing behavior if I do not feel the need to at all. I enjoy going outside at work and I enjoy feeling free to talk with whom I choose and that may require standing near smokers, if I dont like the smell (which I dont now) then I try to stand away a little from it, that is all. |
Hi TYTM, My husband quit playing pool when he quit drinking, and I asked him why he never played pool again. He said it wasn't because he might drink, but that he didn't enjoy pool in particular unless he was buzzed. He always used to leave when the bar got busy as the evening wore on anyway, because he cops used to park outside the bar at "quitting time" and arrest people for DUI. I can't think of anything I quit doing when I stopped drinking. In fact, I added things. But then, for me drinking was never a social event anyway. I drank alone at home in front of the TV. I like your rationale with the cigarettes and having the open pack. I guess that's what I was doing with the cold duck. Just having that bottle there and knowing I could have it at any time was enough to stop the AV in my head from shouting me into going to the store. Thinking about this causes me to consider the concept of conditioned reflexes. It was always a series of actions for me: Tired --> liquor store --> drink. Hungover --> liquor store --> drink. Happy --> liquor store --> drink. Sad --> liquor store --> drink. Fill in what you like for #1. Any emotion (good or bad), or physically bad feeling, led to the same set of responses. Cutting out the middle one (liquor store) worked for me. Already having the booze would have been enough to make me drink anyway BEFORE I decided I was a non-drinker, but with the determination to break the pattern, the deprivation of the ABILITY to drink the alcohol wasn't necessary for me to quit drinking. That brought up another interesting thought, at least interesting to me. Quite a few years ago, my brother-in-law went to a stop-drinking-place where they gave him electric shocks while he drank, in some kind of aversion therapy. He proclaimed "Success!" after a few sessions of treatment, sure he would NEVER DRINK AGAIN! That was something like 30 years ago, for most of which including now he has continued to be a closet whiskey drinker. I don't hear much talk these days about aversion therapies, but I know they used to do that for smoking as well. FT |
On another note, if you shouldn't tell people your Big Plan what reason do you give for not drinking? I never hit 'rock bottom' so people are going to think it odd I won't even have a glass of wine or a beer. I've been to the pub three times this week and the not drinking is a piece of cake. In fact, I relish in what little Beast activity there is. So far I've played the health card but i can't use that reason forever. |
There is a tendency for newly declared non-drinkers to think that everybody else gives a hoot about whether you are drinking or not. The truth of the matter is that NO ONE CARES except you. If they act like they do care, their concern is actually about their OWN drinking behavior compared to yours, as it is often a challenge to their own thoughts about sobriety. For me, I was quite surprised at how many non-drinkers there were, everywhere I went. I thought I'd be the odd man/woman out, and I wasn't. There are non-drinkers EVERYWHERE, and the only ones who seem to mention it are the ones for whom not drinking is still a form of activism. I would examine the reasons you go to a pub. If it is to drink, why are you there? If it is to meet your friends, eventually they'll know you are not a drinker any more, if that is your intention. Why do you have to state a reason? In all the years I've been a non-drinker, I have NEVER ONCE had to explain it to anyone except people who know me intimately. I think the reason not to tell anyone about your Big Plan is that it makes a big deal out of simple self-declaration of self-recovery. Self recovery is self empowerment that needs no declaration to or validation from others. Having said that, that same self empowerment should not be easily threatened by any challenge, either from within or from others. FT |
Originally Posted by freethinking
(Post 3130857)
Normally, my husband refuses to order any alcohol around me even though I know with anyone else he would have a beer. last night I asked him to please go ahead and have a drink or two. I was so glad I did. The Beast did not come out full stop but it did rear a little bit and I just sat there and observed it kicking around in my head a bit. Then it passed. I have never done this in the past and while I cannot explain why, in my gut I feel this exercise helped me in the end. You have the power, not the Beast, because IT is powerless, nothing more than a quadriplegic, and only you control your muscles. IT cannot do anything without YOUR help. Each time you stare IT down and force IT to bow down to superior force, IT will become progressively weaker, and you'll have an the advantage. Eventually, you'll probably just laugh at the AV when it pops up, and think "HA! You again, Ms. Beast? Still at it, huh? You sound pretty pathetic these days. I never drink, remember? Too bad for you." |
Originally Posted by failedtaper
(Post 3131153)
There is a tendency for newly declared non-drinkers to think that everybody else gives a hoot about whether you are drinking or not. The truth of the matter is that NO ONE CARES except you. If they act like they do care, their concern is actually about their OWN drinking behavior compared to yours, as it is often a challenge to their own thoughts about sobriety. For me, I was quite surprised at how many non-drinkers there were, everywhere I went. I thought I'd be the odd man/woman out, and I wasn't. There are non-drinkers EVERYWHERE, and the only ones who seem to mention it are the ones for whom not drinking is still a form of activism. I would examine the reasons you go to a pub. If it is to drink, why are you there? If it is to meet your friends, eventually they'll know you are not a drinker any more, if that is your intention. Why do you have to state a reason? In all the years I've been a non-drinker, I have NEVER ONCE had to explain it to anyone except people who know me intimately. I think the reason not to tell anyone about your Big Plan is that it makes a big deal out of simple self-declaration of self-recovery. Self recovery is self empowerment that needs no declaration to or validation from others. Having said that, that same self empowerment should not be easily threatened by any challenge, either from within or from others. FT I'm thinking ahead particularly to the Christmas period and a short holiday I am going on with a few friends in the New Year. These things always center around drinking but I am going for the social reasons (which is why I have been at the pub)—and to get away from work. While most people do not care I do know that I will get asked early on in the holiday why I am the only one not drinking. Coming from a culture where drinking is so heavily engrained you can be regarding as somewhat of a pariah for not partaking. I've been a non-drinker before (but without a Big Plan) and it's quite interesting to see how uncomfortable some people can get when there are only two of you and they have to drink alone. I know this is something I should work out for myself and is not within the scope of AVRT. I was just wondering if anyone else was in a similar situation. |
Hi Kanamit, I am also from a drinking culture. I am hispanic, and wine was a part of daily life for my family, even the children, although for the children it was incidental until they were older. Unfortunately, in some cultures like mine, most of what I can remember about my older uncles was how they stunk of wine and tobacco, as remembered through the eyes of a child. A lot of people from drinking cultures don't drink alcohol. My grandmother, for example, never drank wine or ouzo, which was always around. It was mostly the men, and it was indeed part of their macho-ness. I think the main thing is for you to be firm in your resolve, which certainly is part of AVRT. In fact, my take on AVRT is that it matters little whether you are in a room full of drinkers or sitting next to a single one in an intimate setting. People who knew me with a drink always in my hand didn't seem to care much beyond my first "explanation" that I just didn't feel like drinking anymore, in fact I felt better than I ever had and was watching out for my health as I got older. (ha! old at 40) Some of the drinking cultures have recognized that alcohol abuse is separate from the traditional drinking that has been done culturally. For example, in my culture children were always allowed sips of wine but never given their own glass. I didn't develop my own drinking habit until I was older, outside of family settings. This is just my take on the issue, and not representative of the SVRT method. FT |
Originally Posted by kanamit
(Post 3131168)
I've been a non-drinker before (but without a Big Plan) and it's quite interesting to see how uncomfortable some people can get when there are only two of you and they have to drink alone. Just say "I never drink." |
I've been having fun here with the Beast. I'm on Google Maps and I'm going up and down Las Vegas Strip. When I hit a liquor store I stop and see what happens. I actually felt the Beast inside wince for the first time ever. "Do you realize how long forever is? Why are you doing this?" I immediately twigged onto what was happening and smiled. I guess the more I do this the stronger I'll get in spite of the Beast? |
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
(Post 3131157)
You're doing good, freethinking. You don't have to be afraid of your own desire for alcohol (the Beast), or the Addictive Voice, which is the expression of that desire, any more than you have to be afraid of your own sex drive. Don't explain to the AV why you never drink; just recognize IT, stare IT down, and IT will settle down. You have the power, not the Beast, because IT is powerless, nothing more than a quadriplegic, and only you control your muscles. IT cannot do anything without YOUR help. Each time you stare IT down and force IT to bow down to superior force, IT will become progressively weaker, and you'll have an the advantage. Eventually, you'll probably just laugh at the AV when it pops up, and think "HA! You again, Ms. Beast? Still at it, huh? You sound pretty pathetic these days. I never drink, remember? Too bad for you." We had about 20 people over today. Me and The Beast actually went to the liquor store to buy the beer and wine. I know my husband was scared i was going to be tempted to buy my own stash, but it didn't happen. A couple of times I felt a little more "quiet" than normal at our party today (as I am usually drunk/heavily buzzed at these things), and a thought crossed my mind that if I was drinking that I wouldn't feel so bad about not being as talkative and I'd be more "funny" and social. But again, any thoughts I had sort of happened in a way where I was observing the thoughts but was not "one" with the thoughts. We did give the leftover wine and beer away as people were leaving this evening because, although I am trying to lessen my fear of alcohol, I am not sure I am *there* yet in having it in the house. But I was very proud of the fact that last night my husband had his drinks at dinner and then again today we served it in our house and I was fine. In fact, I had a really nice time on both occasions. Five years ago I would have thought this whole approach was nuts, but it makes so much sense. I am taking away the power that I have given to an inanimate object. In reality, I have always had the power and still do, but it's going to take a while to deprogram myself from the belief that I am powerless. |
Originally Posted by freethinking
(Post 3131526)
Five years ago I would have thought this whole approach was nuts, but it makes so much sense. I am taking away the power that I have given to an inanimate object. In reality, I have always had the power and still do, but it's going to take a while to deprogram myself from the belief that I am powerless. |
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