lostbutterfly

Keep getting memories of me and my ex (who died this year from alcoholic neuropathy) and all the good times we had. And getting the same loneliness I always feel when I think of him - we broke up years before he died, but he is my 8 year old's father, so stayed in contact.

Realised it is my AV, because the good times involved a lot of drink and drugs, and it was when we broke up that my drinking started in earnest. It's like it's trying to get me to feel the same way I used to, to remind me why I started drinking so much in the first place.

The loneliness isn't real. The relationship was horrible at the end. I think maybe our beasts found each other, like they say in the book, because it was almost like we were addicted to each other and couldn't leave each other even when we both knew we were a poisonous combination.

It's really sneaky. Also exceedingly chatty this morning in that half awake state I'm in for the half hour before I get up. As though it knows I'm not quite at full strength. Glad I caught it though, otherwise I would be feeling very sorry for myself right now!

DrivenHeart85

I'm so happy to hear you're having so much success lostbutterfly! I made AVRT 10,000 times more difficult than it was meant to be when I first started. lol It's so nice to have such a great tool...it makes staying away from alcohol worlds easier.

lostbutterfly

I know we aren't supposed to count time, but it's been over two weeks, and it's flown. I can't actually imagine drinking again. How weird is that? It really does feel like a part of my life that is just over now.
It's a damn sight easier taking on something you actually know is there. I have no doubt the beast hasn't finished with me, but that's ok, I know what I need to know now!

Terminally Unique

AVRT is patterned after the ruthless, unyielding mentality of the addictive voice itself, allowing you to meet the Beast on its own turf and to fight fire with fire.

"So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself."

Terminally Unique

AVRT is patterned after the ruthless, unyielding mentality of the addictive voice itself, allowing you to meet the Beast on its own turf and to fight fire with fire.


"So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss. If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose. If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself."

Terminally Unique

Posted in the newcomer's forum a few pages up:

While it is true that some do suggest this, the assertion is incorrect. The structural model of addiction that AVRT uses presumes that the Beast, once born, may never go away, possibly lingering for decades. In other words, AVRT presumes that you are deeply addicted, at the end of your rope, and that you can't take any more. This might seem like a bad thing, that the Beast may never go away, but AVRT, like most learned skills, actually gets easier the more you use it.

lostbutterfly

This jumped out at me as well. Certainly perked the beast up!
To me, it just doesn't matter. It is academic whether my addiction was less deep than someone elses. I was in plenty deep enough for me thanks!
The other thing the beast loved was the thread about how a fairly high percentage of recovered drinkers can go on to be social drinkers. Beast won't shut up about that one. It's good practice for me! I have to make sure I don't get into arguments and debates with it.

avrtisian

I got sober using avrt without realising it, i got the book about 6mths after i stopped drinking, i found it again the other day, all the bits i highlighted are still relevant today, it has become automatic to recognise the av today, it definitely gets easier, i also use "play the tape all the way through" to remind myself where i could end up if i gave in to the animal brain :-)

FT

To me that sounds an awful lot like somebody needed a "good" excuse to continue to drink. Beast/AV alive and well.

FT

FT

Same here. I'd say my 15+ years of alcohol addiction did not qualify me for "an earlier stage of addiction", when I quit in much the same way. That was a long time ago (20+ years), and I find AVRT just as relevant for me today as it was then. Maybe more so. I am NEVER going to drink again. Big plans can last MANY years.

FT

Terminally Unique

Welcome.

Please don't take this as a prediction of doom or as advice not to use this if it works for you, but this approach, variously called "playing the tape through," "seeing it through," or "thinking through the drink," when viewed through AVRT, brings up some questions.

• The Beast doesn’t care in the least about your suffering, or where you might end up if you drink or use again. At best, all it can imagine is the pleasure derived from drinking/using, and at worst, it views drinking/using as necessary to survival itself. As such, scary scenarios won't have any effect on its agenda at all, and it will still want to indulge regardless.
  
  
• There is a good possibility that over time, you will start to forget the bad stuff and why you quit in the first place. Seeing it through is essentially entering into negotiations with the Beast, which will necessarily downplay the bad stuff you imagine and instead come up with its own scenarios of blissful, intoxicated pleasure.
  
  
• Seeing it through brings into question the finality of the Big Plan. If you have made a Big Plan, you have decided not only never to drink or use again, but also to never to consider the possibility of doing so again. If you really aren’t going to drink/use again, and will never change your mind, why see it through? Why focus on "what if" when never would be more in line with the Big Plan?

DrivenHeart85

"...some suggest that perhaps it [AVRT] is better suited for those at an earlier stage of alcohol addiction."

Isn't this just one of the many slings at AVRT by people in other programs to justify their own? Others are, "AVRT might work but only for a little while; it's not a long term solution." or "People who use AVRT and have success with it were never actually "alcoholics" to begin with."

I know we get a lot of grief for AA bashing around here but this stuff is AVRT bashing and happens all the time too. There's no proof for the claims, just random stuff thrown out there because the proclaimer can't keep an open mind about the possibility of a simple solution for alcohol addiction.

Dee74

If you guys see a 'sling' you guys feel breaks our rules please report it
I think that's better than discussing other posts or threads here.

D

kanamit

I agree. I think if you feel you are drinking too much then AVRT will work for you. The amount you drink is irrelevant.

There is a lot of mud thrown at Rational Recovery and, unfortunately, a lot of it has stuck.

Terminally Unique

While that snippet about an "earlier stage of addiction" might be a sling at AVRT, that's not why I chose it. AVRT is a paradigm, an idea, and more importantly, a self-aiming weapon which locks onto the Addictive Voice. It has no feelings, and it doesn't need to be defended. I chose the snippet because it was a pristine example of Addictive Voice, which some people's Beasts apparently noticed immediately upon reading.

DrivenHeart85

My Beast likes irony. Today marks 30 days without drinking and the damn thing is out singing its national anthem. Oh I hope this thing gets a different hobby one day. lol

Terminally Unique

You forgot the classic about RR being for-profit, that selling a book that costs less than a twelve-pack of beer is wrong, and that those making obscene amounts of money working for non-profit outfits (salary info is available online) are really selfless altruists.

Recall that you yourself had to see through this before you were able to grasp the potency of AVRT. The same is true of anyone else who would successfully use AVRT, so don't worry about "bashing," since recognizing it as the AV itself, injecting doubt, is a necessary part of successful self-recovery.

Terminally Unique

Of course. Every time you check off another milestone, your Beast is thinking "it's been sooooo looooong without a drink!"

Let the Beast count time. You never drink.

DrivenHeart85

It's hard not to count time. Well, I wanted to do it for the first month since that includes a lot of the withdrawal and new habit forming. I think I'll lay off of it now for a while though...I'm not a "fragile sober baby" anymore. <<< Please note that's my opinion about being fragile in the first 30 days, not Rational Recovery's.

sobermax

Since making my big plan I have

Been suspended from my job (and thankfully reinstated).
Found out that I am going to be a father for the first time.
Lost a large amount of money in a business deal.
Made contact with long-lost relatives. . . .

. . . and various other minor triumphs and disasters.

None of which have ANYTHING to do with drinking alcohol and I have not negotiated with my beast. I simply don't have to anymore.

I will never drink again and I will never change my mind.