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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 2

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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 2

Old 11-20-2011, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by kanamit View Post
Can animals get addicted according to the structural model of addiction? I must admit I don't understand the difference between a human brain and an animal one.
Yes and no. Animals can certainly become chemically dependent, but it is unlikely that they have the capacity to summarily choose to reverse a chemical dependency unless forced to do so. In other words, you can certainly make a mouse dependent on cocaine, and while the mouse might temporarily think twice about going for the cocaine if a big bad hungry cat stood in the way, in the grand scheme of things, the mouse has no choice but to remain dependent. In classical terms, it would be said that the mouse lacks free will.

In terms of the structural model, animals are far more driven by base urges, since their Neocortex is not as developed. You can see this in the image below comparing a mouse, monkey, and human Neocortex (blue part). Note that the three are not to scale in comparison to each other, and in reality, the human brain itself is much larger, obviously. Note also that the mouse neocortical structure is smooth, whereas the human one is folded, so the surface area is far greater in comparison than a simple size difference would indicate.



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Old 11-20-2011, 05:23 AM
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I believe that RR is the method for me, but I'm having trouble getting past the third day. I read in a previous post that your body doesn't metabolize all of the alcohol from your last binge for about 3-4 days. Then your body craves the alcohol.

I think that may be what's happening to me and that the beast kicks in big time and I run to the store and get a box of wine and some gin to mix in. That lasts about 3 days and then the cycle goes on.

I just feel that if I can get past the third of fourth day, that I will be on track to beat the beast.
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Old 11-20-2011, 05:45 AM
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The 1st 5 days are always brutal, no matter what for me - I go through serious withdrawals. But what helps to keep my mind off of it is to watch some movies, nap whenever my body gets tired, and even keep myself off the internet and email so I don't get too stressed about anything "incoming".

Take it easy today, please hang in there.
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Old 11-20-2011, 06:36 AM
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Yes, do hang in there LifeIsGood. It took me about 3 "tries" before I could get even a couple weeks in of sobriety; I eventually got so sick of drinking again, the addiction cycle starting over and withdrawal kicking in that AV recognition got easier each time. Now, there is nothing my Beast can say to me to convince me to drink again...it's all just a ploy, and that **cker doesn't have to suffer the hell of addiction that I do, so its opinions on booze are null and void from here on out.

I had a lot of success with movies too...it can distract your thoughts pretty well, just as sleeping can. In my first 5 days, I think I would've slept for 3 days straight if I didn't have to work. lol Best wishes and keep posting.
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Old 11-20-2011, 07:14 AM
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Thanks for the encouragement and tips. I have 3 workdays this week and then off for Thanksgiving and through the weekend. I'd love to give myself and my family a great 2012 and beyond. And caging the beast now will be the way to do it.

My username is LifeIsGood because that's what I want it to be. The beast has been in control for 11 years and that's way too long.

I'm so glad that I found this forum. It's been giving me hope and I'm ready to stop the madness.
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:03 AM
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LifeIsGood,

It's true that the first four days or so are bad, but don't let that discourage you. Just attribute all "craving" to IT, the Beast, and go do something else, anything else. If you haven't already done so, get a copy of the Rational Recovery book, and take the free AVRT crash course at the RR web site. Since you have some days off, you can read the book then, but do it when you are neither drunk nor hung over. You need to be clearheaded in order to understand what you read, and decisions to never drink again made while hung over rarely stick.

Set a deadline for making a Big Plan, such as after you finish reading the crash course and the book, but don't put it off for too long, though. Then, just set your confidence level arbitrarily at 100%, recognize anything that contradicts your Big Plan, and all self-doubt about being able to stick to it, as the Addictive Voice itself, and you will do fine. If April here can pull it off after some of her shenanigans, I'm sure that you can too.
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:18 AM
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Awe, TU knows it's still me...three usernames later. lol :ghug3 My shenanigans were never meant to be negative towards others, minus TU cuz he's so freaking smart and it's irritating (lol), just the ramblings of an addict trying break her dependency...they could make reality tv out of this stuff.
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Old 11-20-2011, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
Yes and no. Animals can certainly become chemically dependent, but it is unlikely that they have the capacity to summarily choose to reverse a chemical dependency unless forced to do so. In other words, you can certainly make a mouse dependent on cocaine, and while the mouse might temporarily think twice about going for the cocaine if a big bad hungry cat stood in the way, in the grand scheme of things, the mouse has no choice but to remain dependent. In classical terms, it would be said that the mouse lacks free will.

In terms of the structural model, animals are far more driven by base urges, since their Neocortex is not as developed. You can see this in the image below comparing a mouse, monkey, and human Neocortex (blue part). Note that the three are not to scale in comparison to each other, and in reality, the human brain itself is much larger, obviously. Note also that the mouse neocortical structure is smooth, whereas the human one is folded, so the surface area is far greater in comparison than a simple size difference would indicate.



Thanks!

I read up a bit on it today. Is it right that only humans and apes have a neo cortex? Neocortex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11-20-2011, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by kanamit View Post
Thanks!

I read up a bit on it today. Is it right that only humans and apes have a neo cortex? Neocortex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
All mammals have a Neocortex, but it is far more prominent in apes, and certainly humans. Nevertheless, the primal brain, while not particularly intelligent in and of itself, is very good at its job (survival), and very persistent in achieving that goal. It just gets confused and ends up chasing the wrong stuff because all hedonic drugs release the same chemicals that it associates with survival, except in much larger quantities.
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Old 11-20-2011, 01:49 PM
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AVRT, the Structuaral Model, and Moralism

Since we are on the topic, I consider the Structural Model of addiction that RR uses, while not strictly necessary to the implementation or usage of AVRT, quite useful. I am keenly aware that moralism is the torque that drives AVRT, but had RR not provided the structural model, I might have rejected it. What Jack Trimpey did with AVRT is to re-introduce the moral axis to addiction and recovery, as essentially found in good old fashioned fire and brimstone religion. The structural model masks this aspect somewhat so as not to scare off the natives, especially secularists, but AVRT is essentially implicit in the Bible, for example.

Virtually all addicted people—and I was no exception—recoil against any moral injunction against self-intoxication as if from a hot flame, since it is the nature of the addiction to cause this reaction. Indeed, one of the primary functions of the Addictive Voice is to conceal the fact that drinking/using, once a clear pattern of harm has been established as a result of it, is profoundly immoral conduct. Problem is, while the AV may try to say that there is nothing wrong with getting drunk or high, nothing at all, once addicted, if drinking/using causes problems, we know perfectly well that indeed there is something profoundly wrong with it, otherwise we wouldn't have felt so guilty every time we got loaded.
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:01 PM
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So that would mean it's only immoral for addicts to drink, not people who have two and call it quits for the night. Maybe it's the abuse of the substance that makes it wrong and not the actual drinking of alcohol; since people who aren't addicted to alcohol don't have any problems resulting from their drinking.
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DrivenHeart85 View Post
So that would mean it's only immoral for addicts to drink, not people who have two and call it quits for the night.
I would say that it is immoral for all problem drinkers, addicted or not, to indulge, but no, I do not consider it immoral for your average drinker who causes no problems to others to drink. Self-intoxication is an individual liberty in my book, and if you are willing to accept the consequences, so long as you are not a menace to society, have at it. Not my business.

Originally Posted by DrivenHeart85 View Post
Maybe it's the abuse of the substance that makes it wrong and not the actual drinking of alcohol; since people who aren't addicted to alcohol don't have any problems resulting from their drinking.
The AV will certainly try and convince you that there is nothing wrong with drinking, nothing wrong at all, so long as nobody gets hurt. However, if you know from previous experience that there is a very high probability that any drinking will lead to problems, and that you may hurt yourself or others if you do drink, does that not make the actual drinking, in and of itself, wrong?
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:05 AM
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This was my "light bulb" moment, when I read this on Wikihow. It had a link to RR, which I googled and found this thread.

Technically, the "human brain" is called the "neocortex," and the animal brain (booze brain) is called the "midbrain." The neocortex is a complex, conscious section of the brain. It is the part of the brain that gives you a sense of individuality - a sense of "being you." The midbrain is an unconscious section of the brain that regulates all of your survival functions, such as breathing, eating, sex, etc. When you become dependent on alcohol, the booze becomes one of the midbrain's survival drives. However, it can only obtain alcohol if you make a conscious decision to drink. This decision occurs in the neocortex. If the neocortex (you) can learn how the midbrain works, the midbrain becomes powerless to obtain more booze. You are in control, and you can quit.

So far beastie has been quite quiet. When it speaks, I just tell it to calm down and go to it's room. It might be good at the whole survival thing, but the drinking and codeine thing is up to me.

The fact that our desire to drink is seated in the part of the brain concerned with our very survival, explains the sense of pure panic and anxiety I experience that results from the thoughts of certain situations without a drink. My beastie thinks it's a life and death situation, that's how it is designed to think. Which is kind of my fault because I fed it alcohol for years. So each time I cope with a situation without alcohol, I'm teaching beastie that it doesn't need alcohol to survive? Does this make any sense? It completely does to me. I can't even remember when I stopped drinking.

This feels like teaching a young horse not to spook!
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Old 11-21-2011, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by lostbutterfly View Post

Technically, the "human brain" is called the "neocortex," and the animal brain (booze brain) is called the "midbrain." The neocortex is a complex, conscious section of the brain. It is the part of the brain that gives you a sense of individuality - a sense of "being you." The midbrain is an unconscious section of the brain that regulates all of your survival functions, such as breathing, eating, sex, etc. When you become dependent on alcohol, the booze becomes one of the midbrain's survival drives. However, it can only obtain alcohol if you make a conscious decision to drink. This decision occurs in the neocortex. If the neocortex (you) can learn how the midbrain works, the midbrain becomes powerless to obtain more booze. You are in control, and you can quit.
Thanks for the quote - good find.

Makes total sense why it "panics" having read this.
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Old 11-21-2011, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by lostbutterfly View Post
So each time I cope with a situation without alcohol, I'm teaching beastie that it doesn't need alcohol to survive?


I wonder how that does work in the long term. If you keep saying no to alcohol and keep living just fine, does the midbrain get a clue and calm down about needing alcohol?

I wonder if this is what they mean when they talk about re-wiring neural pathways. Because, judging by listening to people with a lot of sober time, their Beast doesn't continually keep harassing them like it did initially. Maybe you're just teaching your old dog a new trick...

Thanks for the quote lostbutterfly!
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Old 11-21-2011, 07:21 AM
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The Lizard Brain and addiction is another good one to google. Much the same idea - it just made so much sense to me.

I thought I was arguing with myself, I thought all those great reasons to drink were coming from "me", so they were worth debating. Now I know where they are coming from, there is no debate.

My TNC book came today from Amazon, so I am off to read it. I have been reading these threads on my phone and the writing is tiny and been killing my eyes, but it's been so good, I can't stop. But I will tell you it is difficult to find this thread, tucked away in the special interests group as it is. If it wasn't for google and wikihow .... !!
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Old 11-21-2011, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by DrivenHeart85 View Post
I wonder how that does work in the long term. If you keep saying no to alcohol and keep living just fine, does the midbrain get a clue and calm down about needing alcohol?

I wonder if this is what they mean when they talk about re-wiring neural pathways. Because, judging by listening to people with a lot of sober time, their Beast doesn't continually keep harassing them like it did initially. Maybe you're just teaching your old dog a new trick...
It would make sense that the longer we stay away from alcohol, and especially if we eat healthy foods and exercise, there's definite positive changes in the body--our cells, tissues, vascular system, organs (including the brain), general body chemistry. The body's learning to repair itself instead of reacting defensively to alcohol. A good cycle starts as you get better sleep eventually, which gives you more energy and also is reparative in itself. That in itself can lessen anxiety and depression, and then you have the strength to deal with the problems of every day life.
So I'd say simply abstaining settles things down as far as wicked cravings as time goes on in a purely physiological sense alone.
It's sheer stupidity to drink when the body's finally beginning to repair itself and you're feeling much better. I say that knowing I've been sheerly stupid many times over. The AV would lie that I was feeling so much better that I could handle a drink with no repercussions whatsoever, or that I eat so healthy that I can have somewhat of a drinking problem and not suffer for it.
Not! I know those lies very well.

Last edited by SunshineSally; 11-21-2011 at 07:35 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by SunshineSally View Post
The AV would lie that I was feeling so much better that I could handle a drink with no repercussions whatsoever, or that I eat so healthy that I can have somewhat of a drinking problem and not suffer for it.
To your Beast, improved health is just a commodity to be cashed in for booze.
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Old 11-21-2011, 12:53 PM
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just wrote out my big plan and beastie is hyperventilating. Never mind, it'll get over it. morning glory, i love your signature. I am a fan of gratitude, and am grateful to have learnt all this.
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Old 11-21-2011, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
To your Beast, improved health is just a commodity to be cashed in for booze.
Ha ha, that's right, aptly put.
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