DrivenHeart85

Well, I understand that you can play that game but I'm only willing to do that to a certain extent. When it comes down to it, there is no Beast, just your own dried out addictive side. So although you're strengthening your resistance by irritating your Beast, you're also irritating yourself; which I'd prefer not to spend my free time doing. If I were formerly addicted to pizza I wouldn't mind a song about pizza but I also wouldn't go get a job at Pizza Hut to strengthen my resistance to it. Not because I'm trying to avoid pizza in fear, but because pizza doesn't interest me anymore and neither do pizza-related things.

Terminally Unique

The Beast is as real as addictive desire itself, for the simple reason that the Beast is addictive desire. That perverted survival drive did not always exist, but it certainly does now. It is worth noting, though, that the Beast is not the cause of your addiction, because the Beast cannot do anything on its own. It can only use the Addictive Voice to convince you to do what it wants you to do, which is obviously to drink/use.

DrivenHeart85

Yeah, but the Beast is still part of you, it's just a metaphor, if you're irritating your addictive desire, you're irritating yourself. And quite frankly I irritate myself enough without bringing my addictive desire into the picture. And if you're never drinking again then what's the point in teasing your desire?

Terminally Unique

I think you'll find that if you can think of the Beast as a rational entity that you can observe, and a times even jerk around, instead of just a metaphor, AVRT will become a piece of cake. Besides, wanting addictive desire to just go away is like wanting to be neutered in order to stay out of trouble. Typical of addicted people, but for the most part, wishful thinking.

Terminally Unique

I don't know if it is possible, but remember that the Beast will generate moods. One way to see if it is real depression, as opposed to Beast deprivation, is to use the AVRT Matrix to switch between "I will never drink/use again" and "I will drink/use whenever I want to." If your mood rises and falls from that, you know that it is the smarmy Beast who feels deprived.

DrivenHeart85

Well the addictive desire will never go away completely, but I don't want to spend every day with it if I don't have to. I didn't stop drinking so I can toy with my desire for the rest of my life, if I wanted that I could go back to AA. I stopped drinking so I can go back to living life the way I want to...which includes recognizing my AV when it pops up but not incessantly antagonizing it.

Terminally Unique

Well, all I can tell you is, don't listen to music about drinking, then.

SunshineSally

I have to say I'm with you on this, DH. I don't feel the need to do anything but simply get back to my normal life.

freethinking

I understand the general concept/reasoning behind letting "the beast" out a little and observing it, especially for someone like me who can more or less completely shield herself from alcohol. When in a previous program, nobody would dare order alcohol around me if we went out to dinner, we never served it at home when having people over, and I avoided parties where it was served. I have always said of my relapses "Wow, I didn't see it coming, I have no idea how this happened". That is in large part to the fact that I kept "the beast" under lock and key....so when it did finally rear its ugly head, I just went with it due to lack of practice of dealing with urges (partly, not entirely) and due to not even being aware that it was "the beast" or addiction talking. 'It' and 'I' were one. When I realized this a few months ago, it made so much sense to me to slowly expose myself to alcohol and "triggers". Exposing myself to triggers allowed me to observe "the beast" and practice the technique of separating myself from it....I think this has helped me, so that when real triggers occur that I cannot control (the upcoming holidays are a big one), I am a bit more adept at dealing with "the beast".

However, I think there is something to be said for acknowledging how much exposure can be healthy and what would be downright foolish. And, although I know some would disagree, I think this varies depending on each person and their past "relapse" patterns (since most of us are not newbies to drinking again after a purposeful period of sobriety). I have seen people go a bit overboard here with it, and "relapse" in the short amount of time I have been in this thread.

DrivenHeart85

Just a thought in general about the concept...

If you tempt your Beast in order to strengthen your defense against it in potential future situations, aren't you saying that you're not 100% sure and confident that you will never drink again? If testing your Beast is being done in order to "strengthen your defense" in future circumstances, aren't you also then admitting a weakness? And anything that undermines your confidence to abstain is your Addictive Voice...

I don't adhere to AVRT in the 100% mode...I don't do that with anything in fact. I see the intelligence behind preparedness though; human beings are fallible and therefore you should do what you can to intelligently prepare for tempting situations but I don't know why Trimpey would suggest that, if it is in fact the AV telling you to do the tempting.

freethinking

I have never made a "big plan" in terms of telling myself I will never drink again. I am not 100% confident I will never drink again. I've been to rehab 6 times, in and out of AA for almost 20 years, had DYFS called on me - and yet I still drank again. This is where I do not subscribe to RR. I only subscribe to the AVRT in terms of it being an actual technique of identifying the addictive voice. I know some would say this is my beast talking, but I cringe when I see people go on about their Big Plan too much. I just don't find it relevant. It reminds me of when I would be in another program and talk my husband's ear off, ever so excitedly, about a higher power or the literature...when I get too excited and adamant and giddy about things is when I am at a dangerous point. Slow, steady and cautious is how I approach all of it now. There is no magic answer for me. Another program was not my "answer", and neither is this....but I certainly use parts of it that make sense to me.

DrivenHeart85

Oh wow, you've really been through a lot freethinking. But I know what you mean, I was just up reading the newcomers thread and so much of it just made me cringe. It's all either, "Sober life is so amazing...all 3 days of it!" or "I just drank after x number of days". I've been there too.

I don't follow RR fully either, I just use AVRT when my addictive voice kicks in. This is just my opinion, but it seems to me like Rational Recovery presents itself as a one-size-fits-all method just like AA does. Like, "Do all of this and you will never drink again." Nothing in life is ever that simple and you still have to take into consideration your own specific situation, problems, etc. I personally don't like the way Trimpey presents his findings in the book. Quitting drinking is not "1...2...3...cured by the glorious findings of Trimpey." You have to use your brain, perseverance and determination, as you would for anything worthwhile. I'm just so irritated with anything that represents itself as "THE answer". I think people who are new to this should know to always use their head as with any other method, rather than get sucked into another author/researchers' book about a useful tool that somehow got buried in pages of marketing.

And for me, the Big Plan is just a plan, I'm not saying that I know 100% that I'll never drink again (which could be up to like 70 years if God likes to employ evil irony), but I am saying that my plan is to never drink again and that I will do whatever it takes to make sure of that.

freethinking

This is a good way to look at it, never thought of it like that...

FT

I'm not sure I understand what you guys are saying.

I'll have to admit that I have only read the crash course and not the book, but does Trimpey ever actually claim that he has "the answer"? My impression is that he does not. If RR doesn't take some formal "shape", then all it is is an idea. I quit drinking much the way AVRT describes, before discovering it as a "method". I think I would have benefited from reading about the concept of personal choice and quitting drinking. As it was, I simply made the conscious decision that I was no longer a drinker.

Redefining oneself as a "non-drinker" seems to be a minimalist version of the Big Plan. I'm not sure it matters what we call it, but if it helps to give it a name, then so be it. I just personally didn't, and don't, see a reason to make it more complicated than it is.

My impression is that AVRT has never been about a "one size fits all" approach to quitting drinking. If we've got to a call it something, I would take an opposite viewpoint and call it a "one size fits one" approach to quitting drinking.

Does it have to be so complicated when making a decision to "never drink again"? The concept is only complicated and difficult until you get used to your new identity. I think that is what the Big Plan is for -- until being a non-drinker becomes second nature, maybe it helps to set up a hypothetical barrier.

I think a general resistance to the idea of "never" doing anything again is the real root of this argument. I'm not going to guarantee anyone, including myself, that I will never ride the bus naked. It's a ridiculous and unnecessary proclamation, but makes just as much sense to me as promising I will never drink alcohol again, which would an equally ridiculous thing for me to do.

FT

DrivenHeart85

Page 33, "The following 200-word description of AVRT may be enough for you to break through and end your own substance addiction, right now!"

Back cover, "By following the simple logic of AVRT an putting into practice what you learn, you can defeat your Beast and remain sober---effortlessly---for the rest of your life."

If that doesn't sound like marketing jargon, I don't know what does.

I don't even know what I'm arguing for anymore anyway, just sick of parades over "alcohol quitting methods"...no one thing is going to work for anyone, until that person decides and is ready to quit. Period. Albeit, this is just a personal 1.5 year long resentment of mine and I will stop hijacking the thread now.

FT

My guess is that Trimpey didn't write his own book cover for the purposes of marketing.

A book without any kind of inviting information on the outside isn't going to get anyone to read it.

The first sentence seems benign enough with a disclaimer of "may be enough." The back cover verbiage sounds like a publishing company trying to promote a book. Having said that, I don't hear any "you will" or "you shall" promises. You "can" doesn't' sound particularly like a promise, especially since it doesn't indicate that "anyone can", etc.

I'm not sure what else a book promoter can do to make a topic noticeable among the fray. I hate to admit it, but I am taken in by attractive book covers and phraseology that catches my eye when I am browsing a book store, and I don't pay much attention to the plain brown paper wrappers, also those also have their allure.

Personally, I become more irritated by false claims. I don't think any false claims are being made on behalf of AVRT. If you see one, I'd be interested to know about it since I really think this is a method that works for people who want their own plan unfettered by others' ideas of how they should attain sobriety.

FT

freethinking

I think all I am saying is that it seems like some people can go overboard with vehemently proclaiming they will "never" drink again. We were also discussing the whole "tempting the beast" concept, which is how we got onto the topic....DH had asked what the point is of tempting the beast if you already have your big plan anyway and aren't going to drink. So then we got onto this topic of the 'big plan' again.

Right, that is all I was saying. I don't label myself a non-drinker, and I am not telling anyone I will never drink again....not even myself. But hopefully, someday, it will be a "given" to me that I am a non-drinker and that I will never drink again. However I am 6 months into this and after all the years of failing I have behind me, I am not making such proclamations.

It probably does for some. But I have said "I will never drink again" more times than I care to count, to myself and others, and broken that. I just don't even waste my time on it now. It's not anymore complicated than that for me - but I still like AVRT and find it extremely useful. Some would say I am not employing the technique if I do not have a big plan. I beg to differ - but really, it doesn't matter. Intellectual "arguing" is kind of fun sometimes.

Well, that's kind of what I am saying I think!

Terminally Unique

The book title, cover, and back cover is on the publisher, not the author. Simon & Schuster changed the title to "RR: TNC" against the author's wishes, for example. That said, I don't think Trimpey makes any sort of false promises. He is pretty up front about how things "work" with AVRT.

The problem is that addicted people usually want spoon-fed wisdom or external quick fixes, and then become irritated when they don't get it. Remember, dependence is the addicted person's real problem, and dependence necessarily breeds contempt. Just ask any parent of a petulant teenager if you believe that this is not so.

freethinking

I didn't totally understand this part. Can you clarify?

DrivenHeart85

But you have to become some level of dependent upon this book if you're going to "get" AVRT. You have to depend on it enough to allow it the opportunity to de-program you from AA. That breeds dependence upon the author's opinions. That's what I hate about all the options to get over your alcohol addiction, they all need you to be 100% dependent upon them and if you're not, they'll claim you're doing it wrong. I'd just like to be independent, to take some and leave some. That's all.