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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 2

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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 2

Old 11-07-2011, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by DrivenHeart85 View Post
Is there any major difference between Trimpey's book/technique and James Desena's in "Overcoming Your Alcohol, Drug and Recovery Habits," other than just a change in terminology?
It has been a while since I read it, but I remember thinking as I read it that there seemed to be quite a bit of overlap. This is not entirely surprising, since James DeSena claims to have discovered his method from formerly addicted people, just as Jack Trimpey did. DeSena appears to have been aware of Trimpey's work, as he mentions it in the book and even praises RR. I do recommend DeSena's book as a very nice adjunct, and it is on my recommended reading list. I would be curious to know what Trimpey thinks of it, though.

Originally Posted by James DeSena

Another expression used in the addiction field is "beast." Coined by Rational Recovery founder Jack Trimpey, "beast" is Trimpey's term for what he calls the "addictive voice." In Rational Recovery, the "beast" of addiction is overcome by using Trimpey's process called Addictive Voice Recognition Technique, AVRT. While Trimpey presents his "beast" as a real entity, overshadowing "the real you," The Parasite, as you now know, is simply a metaphor for the destructive self-talk that we tell ourselves, which leads to addictive behavior. Nevertheless, Rational Recovery offers a fine alternative to traditional 12-step programs.

Excerpted from "Overcoming Your Alcohol Drug and Recovery Habits" by James DeSena

Copyright 2003 by James DeSena. All Rights Reserved.

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Old 11-07-2011, 06:28 PM
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Yeah, that's the paragraph where I thought he was going to point out some sort of difference but kind of just danced around it a little instead. I have had more success with the Parasite view than the Beast though. It seems my extensive imagination liked to give too much personality and intelligence to the Beast in that metaphor but with the Parasite, my mind keeps it simple and that helps. You either feed the Parasite or you don't.

Funny how DeSena gets away with it though...seems like Trimpey wouldn't be one to play nice with others when it comes to idea/research ownership.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:44 PM
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Thanks for mentioning DeSena....never heard of him but will have to check it out. Part of what keeps things stimulating for me without the booze is learning about all these different techniques people use.
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Old 11-08-2011, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kanamit View Post
Has anyone bought any of the DVDs from the RR website? I emailed them to ask if they play on Region 2 DVD players as I am from outside the US/Canada.

I noticed there are two lots that might be useful: AVRT: Live! and AVRTuneup: The Beast Came Back so I also asked what the difference was. I haven't had a response yet.
For anyone that is interested I got a reply from one of Jack's colleague and she said they ship all over the world and never get any complaints regarding the DVDs so I can only assume they are Region 0 (which means they'll play anywhere).

Regarding each of the DVDs here is the response:

AVRT: Live
100% start to finish Jack teaching a severely addicted man AVRT. He had no prior knowledge of AVRT, so each technique is covered in depth. The length of the 5 DVD set is about 8 hours long.
The Beast That Came Back
Also a complete course in AVRT that was taught to a man who had taken Jack's AVRT class. He had done very well for a number of years and then changed his mind and used again. He came out for a refresher course, so all the techniques are covered, but not as in depth as AVRTLive. The 3 DVD set is about 4 hours long.
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Old 11-09-2011, 07:53 AM
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From this YouTube video—that is an excerpt from one of the AVRT DVDs—Jack says:

Cognitive psychology creates self-accepting drunks and junkies
I'm confused by this, I thought AVRT was a cognitive psychology of sorts. What does he mean? Is he saying most methods encourage the idea that once an addict, always an addict?
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Old 11-09-2011, 08:14 AM
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Another Function of the Addictive Voice

I want to add this to the list from an earlier post:

Functions of the Addictive Voice

Originally Posted by Jack Trimpey

AVRT Axiom:
The function of the Addictive Voice is to grossly exaggerate the difficulty and suffering that discontinuing your vice will cause.
Corollary:
Ending your addiction is precisely as difficult as you decide it will be, and will take exactly as long as you permit.
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Old 11-09-2011, 08:46 AM
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It seems like when a thought like "I'm lonely and bored" comes up in AVRT, the solution is to attribute that to the AV, dissociate and walk away...but where is the split between dissociating and problem resolution? Or is there no split? Is there a problem with attributing negative feelings to your AV AND THEN addressing and trying to solve the issues brought up. Perhaps you really are lonely and bored...wouldn't it make the most sense to note that your AV is trying to take advantage of these feelings for its purposes but then also as an individual, to take action against said loneliness and boredom?

I'm thinking that's the most rational solution...but I guess I've never heard Trimpey say anything about it. He did say something about trusting you to be smart enough to solve your own problems...so really, a dual approach like above is what I'll do. AVRT just sometimes sounds to me like peoples' AV's are just pulling random issues from a hat. When really, the issue may be legitimate, but the AV is just trying to push you toward its desired solution rather letting you solve it with your own good old fashioned common sense.

Think I just answered my own question...but I'll post this anyway if anyone wants to add or object.
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:23 PM
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" I'm confused by this, I thought AVRT was a cognitive psychology of sorts. What does he mean? Is he saying most methods encourage the idea that once an addict, always an addict?"

Me, too, I always thought of RR as a type of cognitive therapy. Changing wrong thinking to right thinking essentially.
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DrivenHeart85 View Post
It seems like when a thought like "I'm lonely and bored" comes up in AVRT, the solution is to attribute that to the AV, dissociate and walk away...but where is the split between dissociating and problem resolution? Or is there no split? Is there a problem with attributing negative feelings to your AV AND THEN addressing and trying to solve the issues brought up. Perhaps you really are lonely and bored...wouldn't it make the most sense to note that your AV is trying to take advantage of these feelings for its purposes but then also as an individual, to take action against said loneliness and boredom?

I'm thinking that's the most rational solution...but I guess I've never heard Trimpey say anything about it. He did say something about trusting you to be smart enough to solve your own problems...so really, a dual approach like above is what I'll do. AVRT just sometimes sounds to me like peoples' AV's are just pulling random issues from a hat. When really, the issue may be legitimate, but the AV is just trying to push you toward its desired solution rather letting you solve it with your own good old fashioned common sense.

Think I just answered my own question...but I'll post this anyway if anyone wants to add or object.
That's the way I see it. Deal with personal issues in whatever way you think you should. Recognize anything that tries to compel you to drink as the beast and turn away from it. The beast's solution does nothing to help the problems and will only make them worse. The beast doesn't care what it takes--a problem, a celebration, happiness, sadness, worry, loneliness or feeling like you never have minute's peace away from people--all it cares about is any excuse to get you to drink.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SunshineSally View Post
" I'm confused by this, I thought AVRT was a cognitive psychology of sorts. What does he mean? Is he saying most methods encourage the idea that once an addict, always an addict?"

Me, too, I always thought of RR as a type of cognitive therapy. Changing wrong thinking to right thinking essentially.
He was referring to CBT, and specifically, REBT, where you learn to be more self-accepting. The Addictive Voice will just use this as another reason to keep drinking/using by avoiding guilt. For example, "Well, I trashed the family car, but I am not really an awful person. After all, I am not my behavior, etc, etc."

AVRT is not REBT, as AVRT violates practically all of the REBT axioms. There is the absolutist perfectionism (ie, the Big Plan), recognizing the Beast as a rational entity, the (I/It) split, and finally the concept of moral judgment. Also, with AVRT, you don't change your thinking; you recognize the Addictive Voice, and then you objectify it as ego-alien (not you).
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Old 11-09-2011, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SunshineSally View Post
Me, too, I always thought of RR as a type of cognitive therapy. Changing wrong thinking to right thinking essentially.
There is one instance where you can change your thinking, and that is in the moral axis of addiction that AVRT can take advantage of. If you can see that for you (not anyone else!) drinking or using is just plain wrong, in the moral sense, and therefore the AV is fundamentally an immoral proposition, recognition becomes almost effortless.
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Old 11-09-2011, 08:03 PM
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Yeah, I really liked that bit on recognizing that drinking is immoral. If I lose myself in the drink, then I can no longer to be trusted not to do damaging or immoral things, therefore drinking is immoral.

It's no longer a matter of "gee bad things might happen if I drink", it's "drinking is a bad thing because of the things that can happen when I drink". It's subtle I suppose... but, like I said it's working for me at the moment.

I studied every link you sent me and ordered a book, TU... I really appreciate your help!

-Goat
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Old 11-09-2011, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
There is one instance where you can change your thinking, and that is in the moral axis of addiction that AVRT can take advantage of. If you can see that for you (not anyone else!) drinking or using is just plain wrong, in the moral sense, and therefore the AV is fundamentally an immoral proposition, recognition becomes almost effortless.
Yes, exactly, and it is (effortless).
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Old 11-09-2011, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
He was referring to CBT, and specifically, REBT, where you learn to be more self-accepting. The Addictive Voice will just use this as another reason to keep drinking/using by avoiding guilt. For example, "Well, I trashed the family car, but I am not really an awful person. After all, I am not my behavior, etc, etc."

AVRT is not REBT, as AVRT violates practically all of the REBT axioms. There is the absolutist perfectionism (ie, the Big Plan), recognizing the Beast as a rational entity, the (I/It) split, and finally the concept of moral judgment. Also, with AVRT, you don't change your thinking; you recognize the Addictive Voice, and then you objectify it as ego-alien (not you).
OK, I get it. I didn't know anything about REBT.
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Old 11-09-2011, 08:50 PM
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Ambivalence is my biggest problem

Although I am 1 year 4 months sober tomorrow and 58 days of crack today I've been searching for help other than AA/NA 12 step methods. I call myself an Evolutionists, I dont believe in a creator god and I like the idea of recovery without divine intervention.
As I have made some progress, ambivalence is the emotion that has dominated me most of my life. Dont know why that is so at the moment, but I hope to get some help to figure it out. All the help I can get will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
I am anger at myself for being dominated and controlled by chemical substances.
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Old 11-10-2011, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by neferkamichael View Post
I call myself an Evolutionists, I dont believe in a creator god and I like the idea of recovery without divine intervention.
Whether by creation or evolution, you were endowed with everything you need to quit your addiction, and AVRT will work within the framework of either perspective. Take the crash course on AVRT at the RR web site and get a copy of the book "Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction" by Jack Trimpey so that you know what we are talking about here. Most of the help you need will be in that book, but this thread should clarify some finer points if you have questions.
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Old 11-10-2011, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DrivenHeart85 View Post
AVRT just sometimes sounds to me like peoples' AV's are just pulling random issues from a hat. When really, the issue may be legitimate, but the AV is just trying to push you toward its desired solution rather letting you solve it with your own good old fashioned common sense.
You are correct in your conclusion. In AVRT-based recovery, there are no "issues" with which to cope and deal. There certainly is a problem that needs a solution, though. We go for the jugular and solve the problem at hand (drinking/using) with planned, permanent abstinence. In that vein, I would suggest that you not use the word "issue" when "problem" would be more constructive.

Semantics, perhaps, but language affects our thoughts, and problems generally beg for solutions. Issues, on the other hand, don't necessarily have solutions, and thinking of problems as "issues" may prevent you from taking constructive action. If your loneliness or boredom is a problem, you will do something about it, but if they are "issues," you might let things fester longer than necessary.
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Old 11-10-2011, 02:56 PM
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Yep, yep...


"Problem and Issue are two words that are often confused as two words that give the same meaning. Strictly speaking they are not so and there are some differences between the two words.
The word ‘problem’ is used with an intention to solve it. Any problem for that matter will have a solution. An issue on the other hand is used in the sense of controversy. There is no element of controversy in a problem. On the other hand an issue is all about controversy."


Read more: Difference Between Problem and Issue | Difference Between

Which makes me think that my AV enjoys discussing my "issues" with me and will turn them into a "problem" when it sees that it can veer me towards a drinking solution. If it's a problem, solve it....don't let it fester. Makes sense.
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Old 11-11-2011, 09:42 AM
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"I love 'issues'. They never really get solved, but they always provide a ready-made excuse for drinking or using."

               — Your Beast
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Old 11-12-2011, 04:42 AM
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Question Keeping Track of Days Sober?

I read in RR that you shouldn't track the number of days you've been sober. I think that it is relevant when you go to a Dr. who knows about your drinking to be able to say I've not had a drink since _______ .

Does anyone here keep track of the time they've been sober? If you do, does it make you feel good to know you've been sober for x amount of time?
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