freethinking

Broadening the concept of The Beast is very interesting to me. It explains a lot in terms of issues I seem to be experiencing now aside from outright desires to drink. I can also see how one type of beast will fuel another type eventually, so they sort of seem to work hand in hand. Going to have to read up on the pain-body again. This hits home with me right now.

soberlicious

I am very intrigued by this...always have been. Thich Nhat Hahn (a Buddhist monk) speaks to this type of group dysfunction in many of his writings. He wrote about the Thai sea pirates who terrorized the seas, routinely raping children. He relates the story of a young girl of 12 who threw herself into the ocean and drown herself rather than be subjected to the continual raping of the pirates. He says when you first learn of this, you get angry at the pirate. You only have to take a gun and shoot the pirate. But, he further reflects, saying "In my meditation I saw that if I had been born in the village of the pirate and raised in the same conditions as he was, there is a great likelihood that I would become a pirate." He speaks to the mingling of beasts for sure there.

Then he says, "I saw that many babies born along the gulf os Siam, hundreds every day, and if we educators, social workers, politicians, and others do not do something about the situation, in 25 years a number of them will become sea pirates. That is certain. If you or I were born today in those fishing villages, we may become sea pirates in 25 years. If you take a gun, and shoot the pirate, you shoot all of us, because all of us are to some extent responsible for this nstae of affairs."

So this makes me think...if the mingling of the beasts can have such negative power, individually and collectively...then it follows that the mingling of the "I"s can have the same kind of positive power, no?

SunshineSally

Oakwood, it's in the 28 flashcards at the website, towards the end. See below. It's one of my favorite parts:

"Ask yourself, "How bad (depressed, anxious, bored, angry, etc.)
am I willing to get and still not drink/use?

(Hint: Try, "As bad as I feel. That's how bad I can feel and still not drink or use.)"

Terminally Unique

Thanks, SunshineSally. I completely forgot about the AVRT crash course, which I haven't looked at in a very long time. I do recommend that people take the free crash course as well as reading the book.

Oakwood, although I tailored my response to freethinking's situation, I was thinking in general terms of the typical bargain situation, whereby people create a necessary condition for abstinence. This, of course, naturally also creates a condition to drink. A general maxim to remember is this:
See "Illusion 12" in the "Recovery Hall of Mirrors" on Pages 81-83 of RR-TNC.

Terminally Unique

In sufficient quantities, alcohol and many other addictive substances essentially incapacitate the neocortex, obliterating one's moral conscience. They have the capacity to turn someone into a sociopath ("all Beast"). It is well known that the majority of violent crimes occur under the influence of alcohol and other drugs.

freethinking

Sure - did you ever see that study done on crime in the D.C. area after the 8 week transcendental meditation experiment was done there? It reduced crime by like 23% or something. The odds of that happening by chance during that specified time period were about 1 in 2 billion.

Terminally Unique

Oakwood,

It will never be any easier to quit for life than right now, and the more you delay, the more the inertia will sink in, crippling you. Give yourself a deadline when you will make a decision, such as "in two weeks," then take the crash course, and read RR-TNC, twice. Then, when your deadline is up, decide one way or the other whether you will or will not ever drink/use again. Either choice is fine in my book, but it is on you.

Once you have a Big Plan in place, though, you'll be able to attribute all thoughts or desire for drinking/using to your Beast. For example, if I happen to see a bottle of my favorite stuff, there is a possibility that I may recall the taste and feeling from it. If this happens, I attribute any such thoughts to my Beast, and not to myself. In this way, I can think "I do not have any desire to drink, only IT, my Beast does."

I therefore become an observer of my own body's desire for alcohol, which effectively neutralizes it. Although the frequency of such incidents lessen over time, it doesn't even matter how much desire my body generates, because I do not consider such desires my own. It is the desire of "Mr. Beast," which has been sentenced to life without parole inside my body. Too bad for Mr. Beast. I hope he has enough chalk handy to mark the days on the wall, because I'm not counting.

wpainterw

Soberlicious:
We might add to the list of literary figures obsessed with beast like influences and behavior: Dostoevsky, the Marquis de Sade, Edgar Allen Poe, and countless others obsessed with morbidity. In a philosophical vein there is Schopenhauer, who constructed an entire metaphysic based on it, resulting in a kind of cosmic paranoia. Also, consider the ancient Greeks, with their obsession with cruel and relentless fate, Dionysian frenzies, etc.

W.

Goat

Oh, I *like* this... How is it I've never heard of AVRT before?

This clears it up quite a bit for me before I've even gotten started.

Why do I always engineer myself into the most stressful situations possible? Because then it's easier to use the escape valve of drinking.
Why do I have all these imaginary health problems? Because then I have an excuse to take a break from them by drinking.

Oh, and this Beast? My wife has told me all about him. She has done me a very great service by telling me all about the "person I become"... without that I may never have taken this seriously.

Oh yeah.... I've got some ass-kicking to do.

*Gleeful rubbing hands together*

-Goat

Goat

Nope, I have to correct myself already. "IT"... and the "thing I become"... this thing does not deserve personification.

-Goat

FT

Hi Goat! Funny avatar --- love it.

Welcome here. I am NOT the official greeter, and I am NOT an expert on AVRT. But I did use my own technique that resembles AVRT when I quit drinking years ago.

The "IT" you refer to is still YOU, but it is the "voice" or "persona" of the beast. I always called it my "addict brain" in high gear, but AVRT calls it the "addictive voice" -- TU, please correct me if I am wrong.

In your post I can tell you are still having a fist fight with your Beast, which only empowers it. If it recognizes that you are willing to be so engaged, that inflames it and makes it appear more formidable than it is.

You can't really "ignore" the Beast or its voice (to me, the "addict brain"), because it is a normal and natural part of you as a human being. But you don't have to let it drive the car, so to speak.

What helped me a lot was to simply "take my dog out of the fight". Making a "simple" decision to be a non-drinker ("I will never drink again and I will never change my mind") makes every decision after that a non-issue. You just don't drink, no matter how much whining or fighting your addictive voice/Beast wants to engage you.

TU has suggestions for reading, which should really help you identify and work with these concepts. I'll leave it to him to do that, but I think his profile has some references right on it.

Good luck, and I'm glad you've found this thread!

FT

Goat

Oh yeah, absolutely! That is where I am today for sure. I think there is some value for me in calling it out. I feel like I've been allowing it to beat me up for too long.

Keep in mind I just stumbled on this technique today, so there is zero chance I'm doing it the right way yet. But at the moment it feels good and I am motivated to learn as much as possible.

-Goat

FT

Hi Goat,

I think I've heard TU call AVRT "Recovery with an attitude".

I think you'll fit right in!

FT

Terminally Unique

Goat,

I recommend that you take the free "Crash course on AVRT" at the Rational Recovery web site. You can Google for it, but I'll send you a link to it via private message shortly. Then, get yourself a copy of the book "Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction" by Jack Trimpey, which is far more comprehensive than the crash course. As someone pointed out, you can get a used copy on eBay or Amazon for about $5 shipped.

You may also want to read through "Part 1" of this thread:

soberlicious

Hi goat...read up...I'm sure you will be a beast master in no time!

freethinking

It feels good because when you live in the dark for so long about how to really quit drinking, it feels really awesome (and relieving) to read stuff that resonates with your true self!

I like your avatar too, lol.

Goat

I really appreciate all the support!

I have had way too many doubts about the programs I have tried in the past -- and the result was that I doomed them to failure from the start.

This one feels like the right fit. In fact it sounds a lot like what I hoped I would find when I first got (temporarily) sober almost 10 years ago.

My avatar is Clueless Morgan from Muppet Treasure Island.... one of my favorite movies

Terminally Unique

I know unequivocally and without a doubt that AVRT was modeled after self-recovered people like yourself. As long as your ideas fit in with self-recovery, your insights are always welcome. I may, of course, call you out on anything that goes too much off-tangent into deep psychological irrelevancies, but again, there are no "gurus" in AVRT-based recovery. Anyone who has successfully quit all recreational mood-altering drugs and alcohol unconditionally and for life on their own accord is as much an expert as the next, so you could certainly tell me to flip off.

kanamit

Has anyone bought any of the DVDs from the RR website? I emailed them to ask if they play on Region 2 DVD players as I am from outside the US/Canada.

I noticed there are two lots that might be useful: AVRT: Live! and AVRTuneup: The Beast Came Back so I also asked what the difference was. I haven't had a response yet.

DrivenHeart85

Is there any major difference between Trimpey's book/technique and James Desena's in Overcoming Your Alcohol, Drug and Recovery Habits, other than just a change in terminology?