FT

Hi Morning Glory,

I actually appreciate that, when a thread strays off course from its intended purpose, sometimes someone jumps in to say, HEY!, let's get back to why we are here. But, I must say I am disappointed that Admin has viewed this thread as divisive. In fact, I very shyly stated above that I had been called out by Admin on other threads, so I hope my comment was not inappropriate.

For what it's worth, I've seen a LOT more remarks against traditional recovery programs on other forums, and I had difficulty finding the comments you refer to on this thread. I have only seen people explaining how they got here and what did or did not work for them. Quite frankly, many of those comments have validated my own methods for recovery that have worked for me for over 20 years.

I am quite new to AVRT, and I personally was THRILLED to find a thread where so many people were of like mind to myself. I have always been of the mind that there is "something for everyone". NA and AA are a fabulous resource that have probably saved many lives. I appreciate that this forum is here for everyone. I appreciate that Sober Recovery has given AVRT the opportunity to provide an alternative to those so inclined, because at the end of the day, what we all want is a path to recovery that fits.

FT

FT

sorry, I meant divisive.

Terminally Unique

I do realize the precarious position you must be in, since AVRT is, in effect, just like formalized recovery groups in the sense that people seem to either love it or hate it.

Morning Glory

I'm sorry if my post was confusing. I did not mean only this thread. The remarks about hugs by supportive members on other threads jumped out at me on this thread. I don't think it was necessary or helpful. I've read remarks that the disease concept is nonsense. Remarks the old timers would never tell a newcomer the truth. Things like that aren't necessary and not helpful. I've read other remarks also. but don't have them all to write down.

I'm just posting to remind everyone to try to make this work here. It's no different than when we started the secular forum.

It took a lot of work by all of us.

SunshineSally

TU, I know about the ACE effect when one makes that decision of a Big Plan, and that it can go on forever. Trimpey also alludes to those early into their plan, that they can have times of lots of AV, lots of cravings, but that it gets easier with time. It seems one must have a very vigilent on-guard mindset early on, like 24/7. If one's guard is down, it could almost be like a white knuckling for some at times. That is, until you get the hang of the art of it. When in the throes of white knuckling and working at beating down the AV which has been allowed too much thought at a given time, there must be techniques for that critical point of time. There is struggle with AVRT, that is, it's not always roses and ACE for everyone.
The art of it is honing a skill, but people can still actually fall (drink) in the process until they get it right. The approach doesn't lend itself to that thinking, it's pretty much: If you decide to stop, then stop, period.
If they do fall, do many think they've failed it and give up on this approach?
How does one pick oneself up again in AVRT after failing it at a given time? Simply more resilience and determination of vigilance?

AprilMay1895

So on the thread specifically relating to a technique that declares that the disease concept is nonsense, which is an integral part of the method that keeps us abstinent, we cannot actually state that we think that the disease concept is nonsense? Does the Alcoholism-12-step thread have to remove their opinion that the disease concept isn't nonsense then?

I'm not trying to argue, I just want to understand why we can't speak our minds on a thread that is so very separate from those doing 12-step programs. They would have to go to the Secular forum and then to this AVRT thread to read our postings...and when I was in AA I knew to stay far away from anything that wasn't AA related.

I realize that moderating forums about sobriety has to be a lot like babysitting wild teenagers at times, but I was just hoping there was a place within these forums where I could speak a language that other people understood and not be the odd man out for once.

Terminally Unique

For the record, my remark about many old-timers using a form of AVRT was not meant to imply that they are lying. Most of them simply do not know how to articulate what it is that they "do" — the subjective experience — and when someone new asks them how it works, they will often actually say "oh, we don't know how it works, it just does."

Step 3, colloquially referred to as "turning it over," is effectively detachment. The only person that I've seen actually make a reference to this reality is Boleo, and that is probably because of his own interest in psychology and philosophy. AVRT is essentially a whole lot intentional detachment; "Step 3" over and over again, so to speak. This is what I meant, and soberlicious caught my meaning.

The problem, of course, is that if someone either does not believe in a G-d or Higher Power, or does not believe that said G-d or Higher Power is willing to allow for this sort of thing, they will never be able to "turn it over," or detach.

As for the disease concept, it may or may not be a disease for all I know. Frankly, I don't particularly care, since if it is a disease, one had better quit, and if it isn't a disease, one had still better quit. At least until science produces an actual medical solution to the problem.

I do know, however, that telling some people that they have a progressive, incurable, relapsing brain disease with no known medical solution, and which is caused by character defects that only G-d can remove effectively cripples them. Many will internalize this and subsequently resign themselves to their fate, embarking on a free-fall to bottom with no way out.

wellwisher

Terminally Unique

You're wasting your time, April.

AprilMay1895

Yeah, I know. Alternate methods are in the minority so our ability to speak our mind is simply against the odds. Just is sad though...especially as I watch your last posting shrink. lol I'm glad I've had the ability to talk with people who have the same point of view as me. But I better stop typing before I get us all in trouble and we all lose the ability to discuss AVRT.

I think SunshineSally had a good question above...maybe we can put this aside and help her out.

SunshineSally

Thanks, yes I'd appreciate that. I've never been part of any program, no AA, no SMART, no face to face support groups. I just want to get AVRT figured out better all on its own. I've read the book a few years ago, really appreciate this thread and especially TU in explaining some of its finer points.

Terminally Unique

Sally, there are.

See "Addiction Diction" on Pages 37 and 152. When you think "I want a drink," transpose the words so that it becomes "It wants to drink, but I never drink."

You can also use "Shifting," described on Page 202, in conjunction with the "Relapse Anxiety Grid" on page 190. The shifting technique can be used pro-actively, in that you can practice ahead of time, when you are not craving.

Why don't you go ahead and read up on those again and then see if you still have any questions?

This does happen to some, yes. They don't quite get it the first time, but they can re-affirm their Big Plan. The key is to go back and figure out why you were not able to detach from the Beast. There is a "Lapse/Relapse Reconstruction Sheet" on Page 178 for this purpose.

It is a little like learning to swim. At first it might feel awkward, because you don't know how to do it, and it is difficult to coordinate your arms and legs in sync, but with a little practice, you don't even have to think about the actual strokes or coordination anymore. If you want a different example, picture learning how to read. You don't even have to think about it anymore, but you once did. Now it is automatic.

It is the same with AVRT. You simply have to do it, and each time you do, it will get easier. Eventually, you won't even have to think about it, it will be like a reflex. Again, though, like reading or swimming, no one can do it for you.

Terminally Unique

Sally, do read it again. It is probably not very fresh in your mind, and you may be surprised what you pick up the second time around. Some people seem to take to it immediately, but I didn't catch everything at first, either, to be honest. I read the book, then it sat on the shelf for a few months collecting dust, but eventually I went back to it and read it more carefully.

AVRT is just a few simple techniques, no different than the multiplication table, for example. But, you do have to take the time to learn it. Like the multiplication table, though, once learned, you don't even have to think about it much in order to use it.

SunshineSally

Thanks, TU, I've got to order the book again. I had given it away before, and thought I remembered it all. It's coming back, but I do need to revisit these pages.
Nighty night from me.
Wishing the best for this thread. There's much of value here.

Terminally Unique

There is a reason that Rational Recovery charges $449 for the 12-hour "AVRT: Live!" DVD course and a tad bit more for face-to-face instruction. There is no way you can discuss this without reading the book first, and recently. Even the RR forums require taking the crash course and reading the book as pre-requisites. For those of you that don't want to read the book, however, there are easier, but certainly more expensive ways of learning AVRT.

Just sayin'.

AprilMay1895

cough***they should really make an audiobook***cough. lol

MickeyAnMeisce

Is it necessary for the disease concept to be false for AVRT to allow people to remain abstinent?

As I understand it, most cognitive behavioral therapies do not focus on the etiology of the maladaptive behaviors but rather emphasizes that such behavior patterns can be change if the patient becomes aware of them.

Terminally Unique

I've said this before in this thread, in response to your inquiries, but you seem persistent. The disease concept is irrelevant to AVRT-based recovery, since AVRT is not based on medicine. Unless the disease concept becomes part of your AV, ie, "oh, well, I have a chronic, incurable, progressive, relapsing brain disease over which I am powerless, so I may as well give up trying to quit and just drink, drink, drink," then you can just forget about it entirely. If it does become part of your AV, however, it will necessarily get caught in the cross-hairs of AVRT.

In other words, you are saying the exact same thing, that the root cause of the problem is irrelevant to the solution. One need only be aware of the existence of a problem. However, the addicted person is certainly already aware of the existence of a problem by the time they even consider quitting. If that were not the case, they wouldn't be trying to quit.

That said, AVRT ≠ CBT.

SunshineSally

haha, got it. No I don't have a photographic memory. I'm ordering the book today. The crash course? That's memorized.

kanamit

Thanks TU for a great reply as always.

I've got it now. I have experienced ACE a few times but it's always been short-lived. I'm struggling to not count time at this stage though as I want to be over that period where I feel my body has reset itself from alcohol.

Regarding the feeling of irritation, etc I should also point out that I am doing a fairly intensive eating programme to, which would make people irritable in their own right.

AVRT is so powerful. My Big Plan has several facets that incorporate food, caffeine, exercise and some personal goals. Things I have struggled with before due to lack of will are now truly effortless. Not wanting to count time or anything but I have already way exceeded what I would have achieved through willpower alone through AVRT.

Trying to apply a Big Plan to other things can be tricky. It's easy to not do something so, I will never drink caffeine again, and I will never change my mind is black and white.

To do something is a little more difficult. For example, I will exercise three times a week, and I will never change my mind. What if I'm in a wheelchair for a month? Okay, there has to be some leeway but I if you made it, I will exercise three times a week when I am fit to do so, and I will never change my mind—despite being less pithy—creates a grey area as if you have a slight cold for example, you could argue either way that you should do the exercise.

Then something like food is tricky because there are so many different parameters. I am a bit of a nerd when it comes to nutrition and read about food addiction way before I ever read EasyWay or RR. I have read Taming the Feast Beast article on the RR site and to me it doesn't fit right because it isn't based on what I believe is the optimal diet for a human being (I prefer the food addiction materials published by Joel Fuhrman MD). So my Big Plan is to eat a certain % of what I class as acceptable foods leaving a junk margin (if you've read Allen Carr's Easyweight you'll be familiar with this) for when there is no other food available, you're eating at a friend's, etc.

As an aside, when I first read EasyWay I was over the moon and said to myself, you'll have drink again. Then I told myself, unless someone close to you dies, there's no way you could not drink then. I gladly accepted that. Now I know it for what it is. I am actually going to a funeral this week and experienced the ACE last night because I had no interest to drink. I could only think I will disrespect my memories and my need to mourn my relative by inebriating myself. It's funny how cunning and desperate the Beast is though. It then said, that's fine, but what if a close family member contracts a disease that most would consider worse than death? What then? The Beast has played into my worst fear (that and dying in a plane crash). Still no, I told it, and it went away.

Finally, this AVRT is powerful. Please, admins/mods, do not close or delete this thread. It's changed my life for the better; I'm sure I'm not the only one.