soberlicious

W...there is some controversy surrounding some of the practices used in traditional recovery, hence the dialogue about sobriety dates etc. Even your statement of being "sober" would come under fire by some.

Interesting stuff for sure.

and W...I agree. None of us has the answers or the secrets for success for another person. But we sure have those answers and secrets for ourselves, if we listen and trust ourselves.

wpainterw

Soberlicious: Yes, I guess I'm not really "sober". Well I haven't had a drink for years and years but that doesn't count. I'm not "sober" unless I have adhered to the doctrine of those who have defined what they believe to be "sobriety". Like Woody Allen, I've never wanted to belong to any club which had the bad judgment to accept me as a member... An auslander?- you bethcha.
I can just hear that Beast talking..."They say you're not really "sober"! So if you can't measure up to their standard why not belly up to the bar?
Nice try Mr. (Mss.?) Beast! Back in your cage now and we're going to throw away the key!

W.

Terminally Unique

WPA, I think you've got the hang of it !

Stick around, you never know who may benefit from your experience.

wpainterw

Thanks AVRT: Thinking it over a bit more, it's true, as Soberlicious said, that some folks might say that they don't think I've really been sober. That's O.K. with me. But I'll say one thing, I've had a heckofa good time enjoying this "dry drunk" for so many years. I quit drinking. That was hard enough. Why should I have to quit this delightful dry drunk as well?
Furthermore, it has been written (somewhere) that there is more than one path up Mt. Fuji. Man on one path who say man on other path going to fall off better take care and watch for boulder on next step! Better meet friend at top of mountain, bow and shake hand!

W.

Cerberus

It has always been hard for me to keep track of how many days since I last drank. I am taking that as a sign that it's really not important enough to worry about. I don't know how I will feel as I get close to that one year mark though. I do enjoy milestones

Something else that I have thought of as far as 'sober days' goes, is in giving advice to others. I feel as though I've got it - I know I will never drink again. I am sometimes hesitant to respond to posts of others realizing that my input may not carry a whole lot of weight considering the relatively short period of time since I had my last drink. I can live with that.

So this is really just curiosity I suppose. I consider myself a success now, no matter what others may think, but to the world at large then, what do you think people would consider "success" when it comes to quitting? A year? 5? When do you think you could pose the argument that a method "worked" for you?

wpainterw

Cerberus:
"Success" is a tricky word in this business. Many say that it's dangerous to be too complacent, but that doesn't mean that you have to be all on pins and needles, waking up each morning to pray your heart out that it's going to be O.K. I'm no expert but my impression is that what statistical studies there are seem to indicate diminishing rates of relapse, particularly after the first five years. Just what the curve looks like is unclear, that is whether the risk diminishes at a steady rate or whether that rate is exponential. It is likely to vary with the individual.The only thing that I may be qualified to tell others is about my own experience and how I felt along the way, knowing that my experience might not be what someone else might encounter.
Congratulations on that one year! Are we allowed to say "Congratulations!" or is that something that comes out of the dark dungeon where the Beast is lurking? (Ha! Ha! You old Beast! You're never gonna git out of thar!")

W.

recycle

I know I'll never drink again too. But I also know that I won't be in this state of mind forever. That is the thing about states of mind: there are internally consistent, and they seem eternal. By internally consistent I mean they always make sense to you, at least within the confines of your own head. And by eternal I mean, all other states of mind seem unreal and implausible from where you are right now. When you are brave nothing will ever scare you again, when you are lonely you always will be lonely, etc.

Cerbus of course you are a success, you aren't drinking and you are not obsessing about drinking. I think I help ensure my continued success by having a program that gets me back to the state of mind where wanting to drink seems dumb. Time will tell if my program has what it takes over the long term to accomplish that without interfering with my satisfaction of life. Right now, enjoying life and staying sober are goals which compliment each other, and it feels as though they will be that way forever. But my experience, and some really smart people, have shown me that all things change. If I don't believe that, all I have to do is dare something to remain the same.

This is a really a good thread, I have learned a lot. Despite the author's wingnutish views on other topics, AVRT seems to have the mechanisms to get a person to the state of mind where drinking is something you used to do.

Cerberus

I agree!

And I do think striking a balance between being confident and obsessing is important! Too much either way seems to me a bad idea.

Cerberus

I suppose everyone defines success differently, too. Success at any cost would not work for me and I do tend to obsess in general But with quitting drinking I am not. I am trying to just be mindful and I am definitely proud of myself although that too may bring the beast from his cave, could it not?

And just so that I am not misrepresenting here, I am not close to the one year yet - I just see that as what I would consider my first Actual Milestone!

soberlicious

Balance...equanimity...this is the most important thing for me in every area of life. So important that I actually have the Pali word Upekkha tattooed in sanskrit on my wrist. I think this is why I never swallow any doctrine whole.

Cerberus

A very wise philosophy, soberlicious! It has taken me awhile to get to this point in practice.

Terminally Unique

a On the contrary, few seem able to give their word that they will never drink again these days. Whose advice would you prefer? That of someone who has successfully quit for good, or that of someone who has not?

You are a success if you think you are. If you can guarantee that you will never drink again, and never change your mind, then you are recovered. Recognize any and all self-doubt as the Addictive Voice itself, and you will do fine.

Get on with your life. :-)

Terminally Unique

I'd like to note that one of the key differences between AVRT and other recovery paradigms is that in AVRT, addictive desire (your Beast) is not the cause of your addiction. The Beast simply exists as an impotent entity, and cannot get what it wants without first convincing you to get it via the Addictive Voice.

Therefore, the focus is on the Addictive Voice, and not on mitigating desire via self-improvement projects like other approaches. With AVRT, you stop trying to get rid of the desire and abstain in spite of desire. Each time you deprive the Beast of what it wants, it will get a little weaker, coming ever closer to starvation.

With AVRT, you never have a desire to drink/use, because addictive desire is not you, but the Beast. In AVRT, the phrase "I have no desire to drink" is meaningless, and "I have a desire to drink" implies that the Beast has taken control of the first-person pronoun "I," and you therefore have a potential problem. As long as you recognize addictive desire as separate from you, as ego-alien, however, you are safe from it.

Desire cannot hurt you.

Cerberus

Word to this. Simplified.

I can only give my experience I suppose, and people can read it or not, ponder it or not for what it is.

thanks.

soberlicious

WORD no doubt! Cerberus, this is just what I was going to say. Man, AVRT we really think alike huh? LOL

I agree. That's why it's been important for me to do other work on improving my life. AVRT can help a person quit drinking for good, but it is not a "program" per se (and I know you have stressed this in other posts, AVRT). If, like me, you've spent many years getting drunk and high, there are quite possibly a few holes in your life when you quit. The old "I quit for this?" To be certain, things improved for me vastly solely because of the absence of alcohol/drugs in my life, but if I don't continue to grow in all areas, then that allows my AV a little foothold. If I don't examine, think, learn, and improve, I believe that I am feeding my beast. I think a healthy, happy, full life creates a little armor so to speak.

Also, I don't have an aversion to the terms "sober" and "recovery". Since my beast is a super skinny starved bi&ch and I rarely hear from her, these terms are not a threat to me. I find it helps to use a term like that when talking with others, since the generally accepted use of "sober" means that one does drink alcohol. I get the reasons that those who quit using AVRT don't use the term though.

ElvisInASkirt

Oh I can still recognize that Beast inside. It's roar is a whisper and it's only energy is doubt and time. Whenever I catch that doubt inside I know exactly what is wanting fed and why.

No dinner tonight, tomorrow on Day X Beastie.

wpainterw

In reply to Terminally Unique's post of today 6:16 p.m. This seems to be the essence of what is going on in AVRT. The beast with its primitive desire to drink seeking the help of the conscious part of the brain to put this into words- hence the addictive voice. The object is to isolate the beast (because it's not "you") and convince the "you", namely the conscious part of the brain, not to pay any attention to the beast, to ignore the beast so that over time the thing loses all vitality and withers away.
As for "success" and how that should be "defined". What I am hearing is that this depends on who is trying to define it. If a person wants to start out with a Big Plan it's best not to try, since the key is to reject the notion of a gradual "recovery" and replace it by a commitment to a Big Plan. But if "success" is being defined by someone who is watching this, or counseling someone with a Big Plan and that someone is asking himself or herself, "Am I having any "success" here with my patients, i.e. are they not drinking, is their Big Plan working?" then I think that we enter into the realm of statistics. The only credible ones I've found seem to point in the direction of diminishing risk after five years of not drinking.

W.

freethinking

So I know in terms of the here and now, it's really of no consequence but, out of curiosity, is there any theory on why some people develop an addictive voice and others do not (specifically, does AVRT have a theory on why some of us have an AV in the first place)? I've been noticing some "suspicious" thinking these days and in countering it in my head, I have sort of felt like a schizophrenic. It has made me wonder...

***I mean AVRT the therapy, not the SR user

soberlicious

Why do some people have an AV and others don't? Not everyone who drinks becomes addicted to alcohol...so why does the beast manifest in me, but not my mom for instance? What makes us different?

I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on this.

soberlicious

ok...that's freaky, we just posted almost the same question at the same time