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Old 08-09-2010, 02:10 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by LaFemme View Post
Oh and regarding drugs vs. alcohol, I never did drugs myself, like you I was terrified of them. However, many say that an alcohol addiction is worse than most drug addictions to get over. Partly chemical, and partly because it is, as you said, socially expected and acceptable.
Yes, I agree, and I hope I wasn't sounding like a snob to Gneiss or anyone else who has a drug addiction. But just because of my upbringing and that alcohol was always in my home, and drugs were not. I see shooting something in my arm, or snorting something up my nose as painful to begin with, plus I couldn't just run to the store to buy it, I would have to go to some seedy drug den where guys have guns etc etc. I know that isn't all true, but that perception that has been beat into my head by family, teachers and the media made it look like something that the high could never be worth. Whereas if I drink booze I get chicks and am funny an interesting in a party atmosphere...which also couldn't be farther from the truth!!
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Old 08-09-2010, 02:48 PM
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No.. Never tried it. Some one's sig (Dee?) is " what if there were no hypothetical questions". Along that line of thought; I focus on cause and effect. I know that when I drink, the chances of bad things happening increase exponentially. The physiology and social/psychological aspect of addiction also fascinate me, and have led to a better understanding of myself. In real world practice, I keep it simple and just dont " go there".
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Old 08-09-2010, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Supercrew
That being said, I could never figure out, why I could drink a case of beer and half a bottle of vodka, and be drunk as a skunk barely able to walk, knowing there was no way I could get any drunker, and yet pour myself another drink. I would sit there in a drunken stupor, sipping my 25th drink and wonder to myself, "why would you do it, you can't get any drunker, and you are only going to feel worse in the AM". Yet I would finish that tumbler of booze.
Alcohol can impair ones judgment, alter perceptions and lower inhibitions. So it seems to me that drinking well beyond what one thinks is enough for one night is a case of impaired brain function. Knowing and then doing counter to that knowledge...defiantly impaired or depressed brain functioning. At least that just my thoughts.
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Old 08-09-2010, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Supercrew View Post
Yes, I agree, and I hope I wasn't sounding like a snob to Gneiss or anyone else who has a drug addiction. But just because of my upbringing and that alcohol was always in my home, and drugs were not. I see shooting something in my arm, or snorting something up my nose as painful to begin with, plus I couldn't just run to the store to buy it, I would have to go to some seedy drug den where guys have guns etc etc. I know that isn't all true, but that perception that has been beat into my head by family, teachers and the media made it look like something that the high could never be worth. Whereas if I drink booze I get chicks and am funny an interesting in a party atmosphere...which also couldn't be farther from the truth!!
When I was first getting clean someone on here asked me why I drew any distinction between between my alcohol problems and my drug problems. Lots of people get off one substance only to get addicted to another (i.e. they replace their DOC with something else). Addictive behavior is addictive behavior, and has very little to do with what substance you are using. The mindset and behavior is essentially the same across all substances.

I actually had much less trouble with alcohol than meth. It may be more acceptable but it was by far the lighter addiction, for me. Your post made me laugh a little though, going to seedy drug dens? I bought at your next door neighbor's house. There's a dope cook at the end of my parents' street, a neighborhood full of professors, doctors, lawyers. I bought at tidy suburban homes with kids' toys in the driveway and decent cars in the garage (and when that guy didn't have any there was a guy across the street and down three houses who could usually hook me up). I've done dope with nurses and high school teachers, regular people you would never suspect. That drug has no face. The only reason you draw any distinction between alcohol addiction and other substance addiction is because you have these preconceived ideas about who does drugs like that. I'm not trying to offend you at all, but the truth is because of your upbringing (and I was raised the same way you were, that drugs are bad) you can draw a distinction. I was terrified of drugs, too. But with the right combination of circumstances I was willing to try it. You carefully arrange things in your mind so you're a better class of druggie because you used alcohol, not other drugs. But again, addictive behavior is addictive behavior.
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Old 08-09-2010, 06:33 PM
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Amen, sister.
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Old 08-09-2010, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by gneiss View Post
Addictive behavior is addictive behavior, and has very little to do with what substance you are using. The mindset and behavior is essentially the same across all substances.
Behavior is the prime mover of chemical addiction. In fact the neuro-chemistry is same whether it is behavior or a chemical. In my life I have been addicted to: Working out, stress, sex, work, pot, nicotine, and booze. Thankfully I skipped over coke, anger, meth, and gambling. Making a distinction between alcohol and drugs is silly. Addicts create their own community where their behavior is acceptable.
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Old 08-09-2010, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by gneiss View Post
When I was first getting clean someone on here asked me why I drew any distinction between between my alcohol problems and my drug problems. Lots of people get off one substance only to get addicted to another (i.e. they replace their DOC with something else). Addictive behavior is addictive behavior, and has very little to do with what substance you are using. The mindset and behavior is essentially the same across all substances.

I actually had much less trouble with alcohol than meth. It may be more acceptable but it was by far the lighter addiction, for me. Your post made me laugh a little though, going to seedy drug dens? I bought at your next door neighbor's house. There's a dope cook at the end of my parents' street, a neighborhood full of professors, doctors, lawyers. I bought at tidy suburban homes with kids' toys in the driveway and decent cars in the garage (and when that guy didn't have any there was a guy across the street and down three houses who could usually hook me up). I've done dope with nurses and high school teachers, regular people you would never suspect. That drug has no face. The only reason you draw any distinction between alcohol addiction and other substance addiction is because you have these preconceived ideas about who does drugs like that. I'm not trying to offend you at all, but the truth is because of your upbringing (and I was raised the same way you were, that drugs are bad) you can draw a distinction. I was terrified of drugs, too. But with the right combination of circumstances I was willing to try it. You carefully arrange things in your mind so you're a better class of druggie because you used alcohol, not other drugs. But again, addictive behavior is addictive behavior.
I understand, and believe it or not, my mother in law is a sketcher and has been for the last 20 years. I could never imagine fixing her, and she was a very bright articulate business owner at one point of her life. 2 years ago my hometown was pronounced "meth capital of the world", so I understand it is a faceless drug that many people in many classes have gotten involved with. I'm not offended, and again I wasn't trying to offend you, I guess maybe I don't understand. So I apologize for distinguishing between the two addictions.
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Old 08-10-2010, 12:39 AM
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I'm not offended at all. Maybe just because I have issues with both alcohol and meth I'm very clear on this, that addiction is the same problem regardless of substance (or addictive behavior, as recycle pointed out).

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Old 08-10-2010, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by gneiss View Post
This sort of suggests that if drug/alcohol use is like eating carbs, there might be some low level of use that would be manageable. I've yet to meet the alkie or druggie for whom this is true. Seems like once we start there really isn't a stopping place.
I think I was just wondering if cutting out sugar/starch might lessen the urge to drink/drug.

Just thinking out loud really.

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Old 08-10-2010, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by LaFemme View Post
There is a lot of research that points to a correlation between diet, sugar cravings and alcoholism. I think I have posted links elsewhere to some of it, will see if I can find them somewhere:-)
If you can that would be great. I would be interested to read about it.

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Old 08-10-2010, 07:01 AM
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KS, I will post the link here when I get to the office. I have read that cuttin out sugar/stach helps with craving a lot. There is also a book I read called "7 weeks to sobriety" that deals with the same issue.
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Old 08-10-2010, 07:10 AM
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I want to thank you all for one of the most interesting and informative threads I have read! I have learned a lot.
I really enjoy this "secular" section; it is odd that I enjoy it so much, because of my deeply held Biblical beliefs. However, I feel very comfortable here. You folks are not judgmental or dogmatic, and seem to value everyone’s perspective. That is a rare thing in the world today. I'M glad I discovered this section of SR. Thank you all!!

LaFemme, I would be very interested in that information on craving sugar. as I have been having rare sugar cravings for about the last month or so.

Last edited by luckedog; 08-10-2010 at 07:16 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 08-10-2010, 09:09 AM
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I agree with you luckedog, this section of SR is the place where I feel like people approach this problem with an open and seeking mind. I also am a very spiritual person, although I would probably fall under the category "New Age Christian" because I have some hippiesh ideas, I kind of feel like Jesus was the first hippie:-)

Here are the links:

The Impact of Diet and Nutrition on Recovery

An Alternative Alcoholism Treatment - Diet and Nutrition

Alternatives for Alcoholism
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Old 08-10-2010, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gneiss View Post
I'm not offended at all. Maybe just because I have issues with both alcohol and meth I'm very clear on this, that addiction is the same problem regardless of substance (or addictive behavior, as recycle pointed out).

Yes, I do understand that the addiction aspect is the same once you are using. I even see how my mother in law progressed down the path. She was not a drinker, but was sort of a hippie and experimented with pot and hallucinigens, when the 80's came she got into the cocaine party scene, soon she ran out of money and basically abandon her daughters. Then she found a less expensive alternative in meth. At that time meth was the preferred drug of the bikers in our area, and she became part of that scene. She hasn't held a job in 20 years, although she is very artistic and intelligent, and she gets by, living with friends and family, and doing odd jobs and bumming money for smokes and to get her fix, which has slowed down tremendously the last 5 years.

I just have trouble equating the two addictions, because I was caught off guard by my alcohol addiction because everyone seems to drink, and I never thought I had an issue, until I realized that I couldn't quit drinking once I started. But I was taught since I was very young that drugs, heroin, meth, coke, are highly addictive, so I could never understand how someone would find their way down that path unless they had a death wish. Kind of like, I know that lacquer or oil based spray paints will give you a buzz, but I also know that if you huff them from a bag they can kill you. I have never been willing to trade a buzz for the chance of death. When I started drinking, being that I never thought it would physically kill me, because everyone does it, it was easy to get hooked on it because of the social aspects of drinking and the media's portrayal of it. I guess I can't understand what would drive someone who is in their right mind to begin with to try something that you know you are going to be addicted to and could possibly die from on the first try. So even though meth is an epidemic, I still don't understand what would push someone to use it in the first place, whereas alcohol is almost seen as a rite of passage.
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Old 08-10-2010, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Supercrew View Post
I just have trouble equating the two addictions, because I was caught off guard by my alcohol addiction because everyone seems to drink, and I never thought I had an issue, until I realized that I couldn't quit drinking once I started. But I was taught since I was very young that drugs, heroin, meth, coke, are highly addictive, so I could never understand how someone would find their way down that path unless they had a death wish. Kind of like, I know that lacquer or oil based spray paints will give you a buzz, but I also know that if you huff them from a bag they can kill you. I have never been willing to trade a buzz for the chance of death. When I started drinking, being that I never thought it would physically kill me, because everyone does it, it was easy to get hooked on it because of the social aspects of drinking and the media's portrayal of it. I guess I can't understand what would drive someone who is in their right mind to begin with to try something that you know you are going to be addicted to and could possibly die from on the first try. So even though meth is an epidemic, I still don't understand what would push someone to use it in the first place, whereas alcohol is almost seen as a rite of passage.
Well first of all just because you try meth or coke once doesn't mean you will get addicted. There are people who use it off and on and it's not a problem, just like alcohol. I did coke, too, but I have no trouble with it at all. Don't want it, don't think about it. Though if I did it consistently long enough I probably would be addicted to it. It was just a fill-in for meth when I couldn't get it, but in that way it perpetuated the cycle.

"I guess I can't understand what would drive someone who is in their right mind..." That's just the thing though. I really wasn't in my right mind. I was raised that drugs are bad, that you shouldn't do them, all that stuff. My mom has never touched drugs, my dad smoked a joint once and decided it wasn't his thing. The only alcohol in the house is a bottle of cooking wine, and every other week my dad gets a 6-pack after he mows the lawn. He usually manages to finish it before he mows the lawn again, but not always.

But change the circumstances a little bit, so maybe you aren't quite in your right mind. I'd been through a few things in a very short period of time, stuff that pushed me mentally and emotionally past what I knew how to handle. So I was out getting drunk with some friends, just blowing off steam (a pretty standard college thing to do, though I think I did it far more often than is typical) and someone had some speed. I was desperate for some way to deal with all this stuff going on in my life, so why not. "One time won't hurt, right? Maybe it will just take my mind off it and let me relax for a couple hours." Famous last words. The combination of friends who were offering it up, my need to escape, and being drunk was all it took. You would sleep with people you wouldn't otherwise touch with someone else's 10-foot pole because you were drunk, it's not that outlandish to think you might dabble in drugs given the right set of circumstances, even with the good parenting you had and the negative images of drugs in your head.
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Old 08-10-2010, 05:38 PM
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Thank you for the followup. I was always dead set against drugs, including pot. But I never looked at alcohol as dangerous, and it is probably the worst. But I am looking for answers to find what would drive someone in that direction, because I have kids and I want to make sure they steer clear of them. And it's scary to read about your reason for usage and at the same time read how truly bright and reasonable you are. Thank you again for your input, it has opened my eyes a little more.
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Old 08-10-2010, 06:03 PM
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It might have been part of my personality anyway, genetics perhaps (I've heard rumors that my grandmother was an alcoholic, but the source is unreliable so I'm not sure what to think). I remember in 5th grade going through the DARE program (Drug Abuse Resistance Education, if you aren't familiar with it). I am actually dead set against this program, I think the way they teach about drug use/ abuse is dangerous and misleading. According to Wikipedia "Since the 1990s, independent studies of the D.A.R.E program have been conducted from selected school populations. These studies reported that D.A.R.E. did not actually decrease drug use among graduates. Some studies even indicated that there was an increased rate of drug use among D.A.R.E. graduates. In 2001, the Surgeon General of the United States placed the D.A.R.E. program in the category of 'Does Not Work.'" The entry then lists and references these studies.

Personally, it made me a little more curious about drugs, though I didn't use any drugs until 15 years later. But the thing that stuck out in my mind about what I was taught in DARE is that there really isn't a difference between drugs. The officer had this attitude that if you tried pot it was just as bad as trying coke or meth or heroin. That's just silly.

But it does make me wonder about the make-up of the brain. What is it about my brain that made me curious where the exact same information steers another kid into being scared to try it.

And I realize Wikipedia isn't really a scientific source, but this article does cite peer-reviewed literature, so I feel like it's a decent place to start.
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:15 PM
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Gneiss, Wasn't the D.A.R.E program implemented as part of Reagan's "war on drugs" thing in the 80's ?

Little late in the game for my generation. lo

Witnessing alcohol abuse at home in the late 60's ,
early 70's, ...the idea of smoking weed seemed like the perfect alternative. In my mind, heavy (out of control) drinking , and binge drinking , wouldn't fly , ... social drinking , along with some hootch, was very common with "our" friends back in the 70's. Pre-80's Cocaine popularity, pre-War on Drugs, etc.
Back then, there was the tribal thinking of : "us" and "them " when it came to friends.
" They cool ? " ....translated to: "Will they freak out if I pull out a hogleg, and fire it up ? " or;basically, ...can a person keep his pie hole shut, and not bring us trouble in the future ?

In my mind, cannibus, was never a "drug". Only drugs classed as "hard drugs" were ones to be feared. As addictive, and all.


I guess the general dynamics may not be terribly different with the two ( ? ) generations since, ...different drugs, ....too many for me to know about, for sure.

I wonder sometimes about how the prohibition on cannibus actually affects the mentality of so many youthful occasional users ? Doesn't it make criminals of them all ? ....at least in their mind ?
And as they know they've willingly broken criminal law, doesn't it make the next step (if taken, a BIG IF; ), ...say, trying crack, etc. ....just an easier leap ?

Really like this thread , y'all

.
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:29 PM
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I don't know what the program was but Senator McKinleys daughter was an addict and as part of her rehab (maybe court ordered I don't know) she spoke to my high school about her cocaine use...I still remember vividly, her talking about a friend ODing and they all snorted up the coke and ran away because they didn't want to get caught. How she got pregant and sobered up for the baby and then went right back to using. It scared the daylights out of me, and no matter how drunk I was I never would consider drugs because of it. Smoking pot a half dozen times does not count imo.

Today she is a succesful horseback trainer in my town.
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:48 PM
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Topspin, I had to go find out. DARE was started in 1983. I'm not sure if it was officially part of Regan's programs, but it certainly grew out of that fairly popular anti-drug movement. DARE is usually presented sometime around 5th grade. For me that means it was 1992 and coke and pot were really harped on at the time. It was just a few years before the heroin-chic thing became popular with all the grungy rock stars, and meth hadn't started to pick up steam yet. The boyfriend who really started me on meth would occasionally talk about the "glory days", when it was higher quality instead of what's more commonly available now. And those "glory days" were just before he went to prison, only 8 to 10 years ago.

It seems like keeping pot illegal keeps a mystique about it, if it were legal it might lose some of its appeal. Once it's available and you have to pay sales tax it really doesn't appeal to your inner rebel. I've heard many people say they enjoyed drinking more before they were 21 because they were getting away with something; I think it works the same way with pot. And at the same time topspin may be right. It's kind of an "in for a penny, in for a pound" sort of thing where once you are willing to break the law there's a lower resistance to going a little farther.
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