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Bamboozle 09-26-2009 06:03 AM

Yeah, windy. It's scary.

freya 09-26-2009 10:52 AM

For me, when it comes to any kind of personal growth / personal healing work -- be it in a therapist's office or in any other context -- it's only going to work for me insofar as I am able to bring up whatever comes up for me as it comes up and in exactly the way it comes up....and that means that I often have to be able to talk -- or express in some other way if "talk" isn't appropriate to or possible given the magnitude of my emotions around the issue -- about things that I might not be able to talk about anyplace else or in a way that would be totally inappropriate in most other contexts.

The closer I can get to "putting it out there exactly as I experience it and feel about it," the more thoroughly and the more accurately I'm going to be able to deal with it and work it through. Holding pieces back -- either in terms of information/facts or in terms of how I express my deepest feelings related to those facts, only holds me back and compromises my healing process. And doing so would be like taking one of your photographs and cutting huge holes in it all over the place and then expecting yourself or anyone else to be able to "see" what's really there.

The really s*cky thing about all this, of course, is that the worse /more core / more painful the "issue" is, both the more important it is that I bring it up exactly as it is and the harder / more uncomfortable it is to do so. In fact, for me, it has always been the case that the hardest, most uncomfortable things are the most important to bring up / get out and the hardest, most painful to work through, but they are also the ones that, once I've gotten through them, lead to the greatest healing.

There are a couple of other benefits to being rigorously honest in this way, too. The first is, once you've gotten it out there -- and especially if you've gotten it out there in front of someone who's earned your trust -- it really does lose so much of it's power over you. Just that one piece is hugely liberating. Also, chances are, if the person/persons you choose to share it with are truly worthy of the honor you bestow upon them by doing so (and this level of trust and honesty really is an honor not to be bestowed lightly), she (or he or they) will most likely be able to "normalize" whatever you're dealing with for you to a certain extent. In other words, she'll be able to, in some way, let you know that whatever it is you're sharing about is not anywhere near as terrible or horrifying or dasterdly or unique or whatever as you fear it is.

The second and very, very important thing is that it is only by getting this kind of stuff out and out of our way that we make room for the universe to give us whatever gifts it has to give us to take its place...because, when we cling to our garbage, we limit our ability to receive and to hold better things.

freya

Bamboozle 09-26-2009 05:01 PM

I'm contemplating finding another therapist over this. I need to be able to say vile nasty things about my experience and I feel like I can't do it with her. I can talk about everything else except for this. I've told her some things that are embarrassing for me, like being a virgin....never having been in a relationship...and I'm nearly 30. Things that if certain people caught wind of I'd be ridiculed to no end. All of that came out during the first session. But this...I didn't like the response I got when I tested the waters. I could be misinterpreting her body language and tone of voice. I do that sometimes...

I'm not sure how to organize my thoughts, either. I don't know where to start. Chronologically? In order of importance? This was a long period of my life.

There are a couple of internet resources I can check out….well, more like areas where ex-Christians and the like congregate. Maybe someone has something that will give me a good starting point.

I have a couple of weeks before my next session so that gives me plenty of time to come up with some sort of game plan.

I’ll bring it up again. I have to figure out how.

windysan 09-26-2009 08:43 PM

Bam, you're a gay virgin?

windysan 09-26-2009 08:45 PM

I don't mean to pry and hope the question isn't inappropriate but, um, dang. I've never actually met a 30 yr old gay virgin before. I think it's kinda cool.

Bamboozle 09-27-2009 09:19 AM

Yeah, windy. Sad but true. Actually, I'm a gay virgin atheist. I bet you'll never meet another one of those again in your life. :lmao I just need to find someone who likes my weirdness. :)

Ago 09-27-2009 09:29 AM


Originally Posted by Bamboozle (Post 2381282)
Yeah, windy. Sad but true. Actually, I'm a gay virgin atheist. I bet you'll never meet another one of those again in your life. :lmao I just need to find someone who likes my weirdness. :)

well all you need to do now is find somebody to make you yell oh my god oh my god in bed on a sunday morning and you cover all those bases in one swell foop :lmao

windysan 09-27-2009 10:01 AM

Bam, I knew I liked you for some reason. Now it's many reasons.

I's kinda befuddled now. Amazed.


Like............DANG !

Bamboozle 09-27-2009 03:14 PM

windy, I don't want to stay this way forever. I'll keep the gay and atheist parts, but the big V has to go...preferably soon. :)

gneiss 09-27-2009 05:38 PM

I lost my virginity at age 26. I didn't really think there was anything wrong with that. People seem to think there's something wrong with you if you haven't done the deed by 16 or 17. It's messed up. It's really not anyone else's business. It's not like I was piously waiting for marriage, it just took a while for me to be ready to take the plunge and to find someone who met my standards... Of course in retrospect he didn't actually meet my standards but I thought he did at the time. Maybe I'm not such an excellent judge of character after all.

But hey... staying in bed yelling "Oh God!" on a Sunday morning is the closest I get to church so it all works out. :D

Bamboozle 09-28-2009 05:37 AM

Thanks, gneiss. :)

Bamboozle 09-28-2009 05:39 AM

I'm looking at the bright side of this...I know I don't have any STI's and....I'm not pregnant.

warrens 09-28-2009 10:07 AM

Bam

I've really come to appreciate you.

I was raised with all that stuff too. I came to the conclusion that being human precluded my comprehending god. Explaining that would take a book...

So, I'm not an atheist. I don't think I'm a true agnostic. In some sense I am a theist who simply cannot accept any religion. After all, religions are human constructs. I became comfortable with the notion that I would leave earth the same way I arrived--ingnorant.

I do respect many people of faith, however. Those who live with and embody a caring and forgiving god. Me? I just try to live each day as if there were a loving god. First, do no harm...make the world just a little bit better because I'm here. For now.

Most religions have at their core certain fundamental belifs. One seems to be self perpetuation. A monopoly on the truth. A belief that there's "them" and "us." But also, most religions seem to espouse forgiveness. And perhaps we need to forgive them for what they did to us as kids.

Fables and fairy tales are ancient. They were created to scare the bejeezus out of kids and as a means of behavior control. "Don't go in the woods by yourself." Thus, much of the "stuff" we came to "believe" as kids, via our church really did serve to protect us from immoral and hurtful behavior. And I think we need to look at those things in the context of the times. Sadly, I cannot imagine a church in the 50's espousing gay rights and freedom of sexuall expression. The intent, I think, was to protect us from what was considered a nightmare at the time. A child who "became" gay.

That was the deeply held belief at the time, Bam. That is what I believed until, in my 20's, I came to have many gay friends. And then the gay people of courage who took enormous risks to educate the rest of us. We have made extraordinary progress. I wouldn't look for a gay bar in Tehran any time soon, but I do think the mass of "Western people" accept that gender identification is not a choice.

Any therapist worth their salt will have encountered clients with these deep seeded conflicts. Therapy is a two way street. You have every right to challenge your therapist. That's why so much counseling is done within the church. But your not in the church. You are in the real world. Every therapist I've ever known has learned as much from me as I have from them.

Perhaps you might focus less on what was "done" to you and more on the effects, and understanding how to counteract them. Forgiving them for being what they sincerely believed in. Stuff changes. Our most powerful effect on the world is what we model, not what we preach. Whether we are gay, straight, Mormon or Muslim. My proudest achievement is in raising 3 kids who seek to include everyone. Find commonality. Expose ********. Stand for human rights. And accept that our differences make us the same.

I truly feel that forgiveness is for us, not the perpetrator. It's not the whole equation, but it allows us, I think, to get past the deed and get on with the healing. When we are continually focused upon the evildoer we are granting them enormous power. I can't do that if I am going to heal. I must focus upon the evil itself, recognize it for what it is, recover, and make certain I perpetrate no evil. It is only then that I will serve a god of my understanding.

warren

sfgirl 09-28-2009 11:12 AM

I'm pretty sure it is a therapist's job to work through their issues to the point that they don't flinch when and if someone bashes something or presents something they don't agree with. I think it is called transference/countertransference. I know in another section of this class I have to take soon the teacher purposely said something homophobic to trigger the gay students in class. I think it really upset one and he left. But the point was what happens when you have a client who says something like that in a session? What do you do? And it is your job to be able to handle it, not by chiding them for being homophobic, in this case, but by keeping it therapeutic. So same thing goes if you say atheist things that in a normal setting might upset her, but she should be able to take those and be empathetic and understand it and not try to convert you but work through your pain surrounding religion while keeping her own issues out of it. That is her responsibility and job. You could always bring up your hesitancy with her about talking about these things and see what she says. I mean right there you will know. If she says, let's discuss your discomfort, that is a good thing, if she tries to convert you or tells you she is uncomfortable talking about it then you need to switch therapists. My bet though is it will be the first one.

And, I have def told you this before, but as for the atheist gay virgin, I think you need to come to SF because pretty sure there is probably a club for you here and any other fun subculture you can think of :)

Mattcake 09-28-2009 11:25 AM


I'm contemplating finding another therapist over this. I need to be able to say vile nasty things about my experience and I feel like I can't do it with her...But this...I didn't like the response I got when I tested the waters. I could be misinterpreting her body language and tone of voice. I do that sometimes...
Bam, you've been talking about being a people-pleaser (and trying to overcome it) for a while now.

Well, this could be the perfect opportunity to make some solid progress!

I mean, most of your posts in this thread describe your concerns about making her uncomfortable, or about her not getting it.

Why should you care about that?

Just go into that office, say "look, you may not like what I'm about to say but..." and *speak your truth*. You're the patient here, I can't see why you should be trying to protect her. Maybe you're underestimating her, or maybe your assessment is correct, but that's not the point. If she doesn't like what you have to say, well, that is her problem, not yours.

If she can't deal with it, then she's not doing her job. And who knows, maybe you're not giving her enough credit. Either way, it doesn't matter.

I've done this myself. A while ago, in my quest to banish my childhood religion from my life, I was all but forced to spew out my anger in my therapist's general direction - all the while staring at a silver cross dangling from her neck. She winced, she probably disapproved, she might think I'm going to hell - but I finally got over it. (mostly ;-) )

sfgirl 09-28-2009 03:28 PM


Originally Posted by mattcake79 (Post 2382410)
Bam, you've been talking about being a people-pleaser (and trying to overcome it) for a while now.

Well, this could be the perfect opportunity to make some solid progress!

I think this is a really good point.

Overman 09-28-2009 05:26 PM

@ Sfgirl
I'm pretty sure it is a therapist's job to work through their issues to the point that they don't flinch when and if someone bashes something or presents something they don't agree with. I think it is called transference/countertransference.

Counter-transference, yes.

Pro therapists are aware of their own prejudices and keep them in check...in order to allow for healthy transference to occur.

Being angry and thinking that your therapist "isn't getting it" is sometimes a sign of progress.

;)

Ago 09-28-2009 07:32 PM


Originally Posted by Overman (Post 2382811)
Being angry and thinking that your therapist "isn't getting it" is sometimes a sign of progress.

I've had some pretty good luck with the professional therapists I've chosen over the years so my experience is if there are two of us sitting there and one of us isn't "getting it" it's usually not the paid professional sitting across from me

However, with court ordered therapists and shrinks Ive been able to tie those fools into knots and my opinion is those idiots couldn't find their @ss with two hands and a map.

I say this because I have been sitting in on a class where a few people just don't understand what the counselor is trying to say, they repeat themselves over and over in a feeble attempt to explain their "point of view" because they think the counselor "just doesn't get it" when in fact nothing could be further from the truth, it's not the counselor who is in denial.

been there done that, now I try to pay attention when either a paid professional or someone with direct experience tries to explain something to me.

here, go read this thread for an example of what that looks like

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...very-plan.html

The OP is explaining the same thing over and over to a group of people who obviously "don't get it"

What is your opinion of that thread after 6 months of sobriety (you go girl) who doesn't get it, the group trying to explain twisted thinking, or the person defending their choices to behave the way they are and why they have to continue to behave that way?

just a thought, I am trying to allow myself to be open to new experiences and see what people have to offer outside of my rigid thought patterns, since they are what harmed me in the first place

PS I agree wholly with SFGirl and Mattcake

Bamboozle 09-29-2009 03:56 AM

Deer, there is a really good chance that all of this is on me. I am uncomfortable talking about it...and everything that everyone has said has been things I've been thinking.

I don't like stepping on people's toes. Also, my thinking goes like this: my therapist has been the person who has offered the most support face to face. She's the last person I need to **** off. I don't want to lose this support. I'm worried that if I get dropped I'll be devastated.

I know...I'm doing a "worst case scenario"...that's on the list of distorted thinking. And I know that I need to be able to talk about everything in therapy...otherwise what's the point of going?

This isn't easy for me. As much social anxiety as I have I think I'd rather step up to a woman and ask her on a date.

I've been doing a lot of thinking after reading the responses here. What I should do is write down my thought process as to why I've been avoiding talking about it. It involves me being a "mind reader", "expecting the worst possible outcome", "people pleasing"....and whatever else I can add to the list of distorted thinking. After I get that out then perhaps I can talk about all of that other stuff.

Still have enough time before my session to write all of this down.

Bamboozle 09-29-2009 03:59 AM


Originally Posted by Ago (Post 2382951)
just a thought, I am trying to allow myself to be open to new experiences and see what people have to offer outside of my rigid thought patterns, since they are what harmed me in the first place

Bingo.


Originally Posted by Ago (Post 2382951)
PS I agree wholly with SFGirl and Mattcake

Same here. Actually everyone has given me food for thought.


Thanks, everyone. Feel free to add more if you like. I appreciate the input. If I can get over my BS then maybe I'll be taking another step forward.

Mattcake 09-29-2009 06:48 AM

I'm glad SFGirl and Overman brought transference into the equation.

My last post was abrupt, confrontational and angry; it reflects how I felt and acted during that session. The following session was wholly (haha) devoted to analysing my defensiveness and anger... my therapist couldn't care less about the actual content of my anti-c@holic rant, but she did want to focus on my "unexpected outburst", along with the way in which I'd lost my "usual charm and cool" (hiss!) Her choice of words, not mine. She had a field day.

I was a nervous wreck when I came out to her... That time, I didn't barrel into the office like a pissed off dragon, and I found myself stuttering my way through my speech. This experience was very different; both were very valuable and therapeutic.


Originally Posted by Bamboozle (Post 2383197)
I don't like stepping on people's toes. Also, my thinking goes like this: my therapist has been the person who has offered the most support face to face. She's the last person I need to **** off. I don't want to lose this support. I'm worried that if I get dropped I'll be devastated (....) This isn't easy for me

Bam, were she to drop you, it would *only* show her shaky abilities as a therapist. Other people's opinions and actions are not an evaluation of your self-worth (I know, easier said than done :hug: I do get what you're saying). Still, having said all that... give her a chance :)


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