Overman

Ack, Zencat I feel for you. My father's side of the family is flaming Southern Baptist (several are ministers). Mom's side is Catholic and I was raised as such. However, by my mid-teens I could see past the illusions the church created and attempted to reconcile the contradictions it asserted...to no avail.

I identified as an atheist for a long time before realizing that a certain amount of 'faith' was required for that as well, and that atheism can be just as destructive as organized religion.

I do have a concept of a higher power...but its more like Spinoza's idea of a universal life force rather than a personal god that loves/hates, has a plan, and is actively involved in people's lives. It works for me.

Other than Spinoza, a good book that helped me to clarify my own views was by Charles Hartshorne: Omnipotence and other Theological mistakes

But to add to the discussion, religion/god/higher power doesn't play a significant role in my sobriety. That would only complicate it. I just keep it simple and make the right choices.

Bamboozle

Faith does not factor in atheism. It simply means lack of theism. No belief.

tyler

My understanding of the difference between agnostic and athiest was an athiest "believes" there is no god, no higher power. That would seem to required a degree of "faith" in that theory. An agnostic, on the other hand, is a "fence sitter" who doesn't really take a position either way. At least that is how I understand it to be. Could be wrong, it has happened once or twice in my life!!

allport

I don't disbelieve in god Tyler I just don't believe, its not like a religon to me.

It is a way to live free from shame and expectations.

SelfSeeking

When I saw "I believe there is no god/are no gods" what I mean is "At this point I have been shown no evidence that there is a god/are gods". That leaves a loophole that there could be evidence out there that there is a god. Hell, a god could knock on my door today and say, "I'm a god/I'm God" and violate a few laws of nature, and then, I would say that I must change my belief in the light of new evidence.
Whereas when a religious person says "I believe in God/in the gods" they seem to mean "I know that God is out there no matter what happens". Not the same kind of belief.

digderidoo

I can totally identify with every word of this. Thanks.

Paul

californiapoppy

I assume you have to know what god is to believe, but it might not be the same thing for each person, why would it have to be?

KariSue

I'm the atheist mom of an addicted son.

The concept of relying on a higher power has me baffled. They say let the higher power handle it but you have to do it yourself. Huh?

Kari

Daisy09

I'm not sure if that's true or not, but it's a very interesting point to ponder...

Bamboozle

It actually means lack of theism...nothing more. It does not make assertions as to what exists or doesn't exist.



Does anyone here believe in the Tooth Fairy?

If you don't, does it take faith to not believe in the Tooth Fairy?

What are my personal thougts? I have not seen any testable evidence to indicate that anything supernatural exists. So I don't believe in the supernatural.

If some evidence were to come along that wasn't anecdotal and showed beyond a reasonable doubt that the supernatural exists, I'd be one of the first people to raise my hand and say, "I believe".

Bamboozle

Oh, I forgot to add....


Faith is the belief in something without evidence or proof.

I've met several people who have faith concerning their religious beliefs...and they know that they believe without the evidence...and, for them, this is a very important aspect to their respective beliefs.

For many people, having faith is essential to their religious beliefs. They do not need evidence.

bugsworth

This thread is the exact reason why I choose to keep my religion separate from my recovery.

No two people believe the same thing, indeed beliefs can be similar but in reality words are what confine our beliefs. In this vein there are some that "believe" they are sober by Gods grace...so for them it is a truism. I can only speak for myself but I always retained the belief that I was capable of succeeding and beating my addiction and in fact I did. Was it the belief that made it true...or the fact that I did?

Keeping it simple to me means making my sobriety my responsibility...no need for word manipulation or making the english language stretch so far it is beyond recognition. (religion/spirituality).

Sobriety has never been and never will be contingent on a belief in God.

My Mom use to tell me that if you wanted to have long time friends never discuss religion and politics...she was right.

Daisy09

I know what you're saying, but something that has impressed me about the SC forum is how respectful everyone is of everyone else's beliefs (or lack thereof ) I think it's a worthwhile conversation. JMHO.

SelfSeeking

That's a truism for you Not everybody.

bugsworth

I agree with you Daisy...the discussion is wonderful but gives me pause when I think about how many people are made to feel as if their beliefs somehow make any difference in their ability to get sober. I love reading all the comments and views points its what makes the secular forum so engaging.

allport

One of my favourite quotes is " Atheism is a faith in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby"

Overman

@ Bam
Faith does not factor in atheism. It simply means lack of theism. No belief.

And having 'no belief' is to have faith that there isn't something worth believing in...


@ Tyler
That would seem to required a degree of "faith" in that theory. An agnostic, on the other hand, is a "fence sitter" who doesn't really take a position either way.

That is my understanding as well...


@ allport
It is a way to live free from shame and expectations

So its fair to say that you have 'faith' that such a way of life will free you from such things...

Bamboozle

This does not compute.

Faith is dependant upon belief...faith requires belief. Atheism is not a belief. It is the complete absence of belief in regards to theism. Let me say that again: it is the complete absence of belief in regards to theism.

Faith means to believe something without proof. I simply lack belief. Lacking a belief has nothing to do with faith.


And who says I don't have something worth believing in? I believe in myself...I believe in my family. I know I exist and I know my family exists.

I believe in art.

I believe in music.

I believe that creativity makes life worth living.

I believe that nature is beautiful.

Overman

@ Bam
Lacking a belief has nothing to do with faith.

Sure it does. If you consciously 'lack' or deny something then you have a degree of certainty about it. This certainty is a vague form of 'faith'.


And who says I don't have something worth believing in?

So you do have 'faith'...just not in celestial beings and invisible, imaginary friends. Thats my point; you still have faith in something...and atheism is faith in something, even if that something is nothing.

Bamboozle

What is your definition of faith? Again, faith is belief without proof. Absence of belief is not a belief.

The way you are changing the definition to suit your argument the word "faith" essentially becomes meaningless.



Atheism is not “faith in nothing“. Again, faith requires belief. Atheism is lack of belief…complete absence of belief.

Atheism has nothing to do with my likes and dislikes of my experiences. Atheism makes no claims. Atheism has no doctrine.

My beliefs are centered around my opinions. My experiences will not be the same as anyone else’s…so I cannot assert that my way of living is the ultimate truth or that it is right.

I know I exist…I know my opinions exist…I know the things I like/enjoy exist. What I do not know is if anything supernatural exists.