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Studying my DOC

Old 04-26-2009, 01:38 PM
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Studying my DOC

I don't even know what the point of this post is, mostly just babbling. Perhaps someone will have something interesting in reply?

I guess I'm just a nerd at heart, but ever since quitting drugs I have become keenly interested in actually learning about their effects on the body, particularly meth since it was my DOC. It's almost like learning about my drug has replaced the actual drug. So often what I find is information and lots of well-intended misinformation that is caught up in a lot of politics and scare-tactics to frighten people who are thinking about trying drugs. It's hard to find any real solid information that wasn't written to scare people away.

When I read some of this stuff it worries me though. Say you have a kid, 15 years old perhaps, who is curious. They read this stuff (or maybe learned it from their DARE officer) and it does not scare them off, or at least not enough. So they try it. All the info they read does not really prepare them because a lot of it was intended to scare them away. They find out drugs are kind of fun and now not only are you fighting their desire to have fun but also a perceived lack of credibility on the part of authority figures.

And I can't help but think I'd rather have a cleaned-up druggie teach kids about drugs than have a cop teach them. A cop can tell me a lot of reasons to stay off drugs. A druggie makes the story real. Here I am almost 4 months since I really honestly quit (2 months since last use) and I still have sores on my scalp that won't heal. A cop can tell me how dangerous it is, but he can't tell me about the terrifying hallucinations and the crash after a week spent high with no sleep, about how miserable it was to take my physics final while crashing. About how I looked out the window one night and swore there were about 600 cops, 3 helicopters, and 50 drug dogs out looking for me. It was a hallucination.

I also know I'm not the right druggie to teach kids about it because I still look back at some of those incidents and laugh. Drugs are horrible but... damn. I had a lot of fun doing them.

The problem is that when reading about it occasionally I actually want some. The good news is that I have cut out the people I know who still use. Deleted their numbers, changed my own number and have no way to contact my old dealers now. And it never lasts more than a few minutes. I think about heating up the pipe, rolling it between my thumb and fingers so the meth doesn't burn and I can almost taste it in my mouth. Reading about snorting it makes my eyes water. I'm glad I never used needles, gawd knows what would happen then!
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by gneiss View Post
About how I looked out the window one night and swore there were about 600 cops, 3 helicopters, and 50 drug dogs out looking for me. It was a hallucination.
haha, must have been a mass hallucination because I had that one too:P My dealer happened to be at my house, and we flushed large quantities, and now I look back and Im just not sure how much, if any of what I remember of that night happen. They should take people in who are still on them and looking hairy, or people with meth-mouth losing all their teeth. I know when my kid was in high school she was real concerned with looking pretty, and the thought of her teeth falling out would have done it!
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:31 PM
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Well, you do paint a vivid portrait of something I am glad I never tried. I am sure I would have been hooked, had I tried. I had my fair share of speed and LSD when young. I swore that stuff off a LONG time ago, but I still remember. Keep on doing what you are doing and the memories WILL fade. I promise. It's been 30 years for me, more or less, since I used those kind of drugs. People DO get over using. I think alcohol is harder, since it's legal and oh so readily available, but that is just my humble opinion. I also know that if I had a bottle of prescription pills, that would be my first choice. I spent too much time in court (as a case manager for troubled youths - go figure) and just can't go there, although I would really like to - to this day.
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:45 PM
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I've never tried meth and I'm not planning on to any time either. From my experience with regular users, they're the lowest of all addicts. (No offense to anyone) By lowest I mean going to any lengths to acquire the drug and not giving a damn at all what they do when they're on it. Even alcoholcs still seem to be able to somewhat interact with people and find joy in stuff, but meth users just con people then disappear. Then repeat.
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:06 PM
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So, gneiss & eroica,
May I pose a question? In another thread you talked about defining alcoholism. How could either of you speak of the alcoholic experience when it is apparent that neither of you are alcoholic? No offense meant. Just a question.
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Old 04-26-2009, 04:32 PM
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Doctors and researchers in the field of addiction aren't all alcoholics are they? I'm studying musical culture of the late eighteenth century and I feel qualified to talk about it even though I wasn't there.

Anyway, I can talk about whatever I want, Jim. I don't feel a need to measure up my experiences to a contradictory self-imposed label of "alcoholic". I only label myself with words that i understand...and I'd never label myself just to fit in with the AA crowd, or to blame my bad behavior on an undefinable illness.

That reminds me, if alcoholism is defined by personal experience, then its not a disease. Most diseases are defined by physical symptoms.. not our actions. There's already a word to describe our actions: behavior.


Sorry, gneiss. Didnt mean to take over your thread
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:07 PM
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I completely agree with your post, Gneiss. There is a lot of misinformation out there and then there is also the issue of how the information, even when good, is packaged. Someone who has been there and is going to share their own story will probably be better received by teenagers than an authority figure telling them not to do something.

Everytime my 14 year old cousin comes over she wants to watch Intervention because I have it on my Tivo and she says she is scared to watch it alone. I feel like it is probably one of the best anti-drug and drinking shows out there because it shows people close up in the depths of addiction and it ain't glamorous. However, there is a limit to how much information and others' experiences, no matter how well presented, can affect someone's choices. At a certain point, I think most people think that they need to see for themselves, and that perhaps they are different, or their experience will be different than that of others, which perhaps it will, and need to try it on their own.
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:55 PM
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They find out drugs are kind of fun and now not only are you fighting their desire to have fun but also a perceived lack of credibility on the part of authority figures.
This is one of the most insightful points that I have ever heard about drug use.

May I pose a question? In another thread you talked about defining alcoholism. How could either of you speak of the alcoholic experience when it is apparent that neither of you are alcoholic? No offense meant. Just a question.
If there is some important difference between recovering from drugs and recovering from alcohol, I’d be interested in hearing what it is. I stopped drugs nearly 20 years ago, and I switched all of my addictive behavior to alcohol. It didn’t make my life immeasurably better, I can tell you that.

I think that one of the problems with alcohol and drugs is the way they are portrayed. I don’t want to seem like some kind of uptight, straight laced, goodie two shoes, but addictions are portrayed as being fun, social, and without consequence.

Here are some things that have pis*ed me off:
There was an ad that ran in magazines for cigarettes. The ad shows a group of people white water rafting over some extreme rapids. There is a beautiful girl in the raft with a cigarette in her hand which is also holding an oar.
Recently, there was a movie called Pineapple Express, I think. Midway through this movie, the main characters start smoking marijuana with kids who look like they are in middle school. They portrayed the entire event as being fun and flashed to images of each of the actors laughing.
There is another movie called College. The cover of this flick shows a body lying on the lawn of a dorm with a beer keg on top of him.

So….anyone up for white water rafting? We’ll all be beautiful, young chain-smokers with deft skills in the art of handling rapids!!!
Or perhaps we should head on down to the local middle school and smoke marijuana with the kiddies!!! I’m sure they’ll lead happy, productive lives with such a opportunity!! Maybe we’ll start a new elective! DOPE SHOP! We’ll teach the children how to grow and roll their own!
I know, I know, college is a place where people binge drink. Even the most talented minds are guilty of binge drinking in college, but I have to believe that many people who are going to watch this movie are probably in high school, and many people who dismiss college as a mere drinking opportunity will watch their hopes and dreams disappear as they flunk out of school, and have to make ends meet by getting some minimum wage dead end job all because they didn’t perceive college as the opportunity that it really is.
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Eroica View Post
Doctors and researchers in the field of addiction aren't all alcoholics are they? I'm studying musical culture of the late eighteenth century and I feel qualified to talk about it even though I wasn't there.

Anyway, I can talk about whatever I want, Jim. I don't feel a need to measure up my experiences to a contradictory self-imposed label of "alcoholic". I only label myself with words that i understand...and I'd never label myself just to fit in with the AA crowd, or to blame my bad behavior on an undefinable illness.

That reminds me, if alcoholism is defined by personal experience, then its not a disease. Most diseases are defined by physical symptoms.. not our actions. There's already a word to describe our actions: behavior.


Sorry, gneiss. Didnt mean to take over your thread

Well, you can read a book about being an astronaut, but it doesn't make you an astronaut.

I don't define alcoholism. I define myself as an alcoholic by using this criteria:

When drinking, do I have little or no control over the amount I take?

When not drinking, do I have little or no control over when I start drinking? Do I drink when I don't want to, when I have every reason not to? For no reason at all?

As for blaming bad behavior on alcoholism, people do that. To me it is a cop-out, but they do that.

You never answered my question. Are you alcoholic? If not, you are not qualified to talk about it. This isn't a game, alcoholics die of alcoholism. That is a fact. There are people that come to these forums dying of alcoholism. What can you offer them except your studies and intellectualizations of what alcoholism is or isn't. You are either an alcoholic or you are not.

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Old 04-26-2009, 08:00 PM
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Are you alcoholic? If not, you are qualified to talk about it. This isn't a game, alcoholics die of alcoholism. That is a fact. There are people that come to these forums dying of alcoholism. What can you offer them except your studies and intellectualizations of what alcoholism is or isn't. You are either an alcoholic or you are not.
People are allowed to say what the please here unless it violates the rules. Just to add my two cents...you dont need to be an alcoholic, meth addict, speedy etc etc to be knowledgeable about the effects of said addictions and have knowledge about the ways one can become healthy after addiction.

Please please please do not hijack this thread! If there are personal questions I think it may be best dealt with through PMs. Just my opinion.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:06 PM
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Gneiss~

It does seem that the education about addictions is lacking in some ways. I should know. The night after a DARE meeting when I was in middle school my girlfriend and I both got MIPs. (Minor in Possession) I remember that they talked about everything except for how fun it can be in the beginning. I think that adding that honesty would help for sure.

I love the show Intervention. That coupled with honesty about how it can be fun at first could go along way teaching teens about addiction. Just my opinion.

Thanks for the interesting thread.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jimhere View Post
So, gneiss & eroica,
May I pose a question? In another thread you talked about defining alcoholism. How could either of you speak of the alcoholic experience when it is apparent that neither of you are alcoholic? No offense meant. Just a question.
Jim--

What makes you think I am not an alkie? I am. Multiple drugs here. My alcohol use lead into my meth use, actually. If I hadn't been drinking I probably would have never tried meth.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:33 PM
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If it matters, me too! Although I quit meth 15 years ago after just one hard year on it, I drank for more like 28 years. And smoked pot. And did lots of acid, mushrooms, coke and scripts along the way.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Eroica View Post
I've never tried meth and I'm not planning on to any time either. From my experience with regular users, they're the lowest of all addicts. (No offense to anyone) By lowest I mean going to any lengths to acquire the drug and not giving a damn at all what they do when they're on it. Even alcoholcs still seem to be able to somewhat interact with people and find joy in stuff, but meth users just con people then disappear. Then repeat.
Agreed. Meth basically sucks your soul out. It's weird. Meth cravings are much more intense and you are right, when I was on it I didn't give a crap about anything else. Alcohol is more available and easier to obtain but either the cravings aren't as strong or the addiction isn't as strong.

And I don't consider what you said a hijacking. I said I was basically babbling anyway. That's the fun threads-- just see where they go!

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Old 04-26-2009, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by uglyeyes View Post
If it matters, me too! Although I quit meth 15 years ago after just one hard year on it, I drank for more like 28 years. And smoked pot. And did lots of acid, mushrooms, coke and scripts along the way.
Similar story. Alkie, started using meth. Then did crack and coke, but was never addicted to them. Then I started with pills: Lortab, methadone, lexapro, seroquel, Oxycontin, ritalin... maybe some others, I really can't remember. And some pot, of course (seriously, can you do all those drugs and not eventually smoke some pot? Is it even possible?). Those were never normally available to me though so they were just "for fun." Meth and booze were/are my addictions.
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jimhere View Post
Well, you can read a book about being an astronaut, but it doesn't make you an astronaut.

I don't define alcoholism. I define myself as an alcoholic by using this criteria:

When drinking, do I have little or no control over the amount I take?

When not drinking, do I have little or no control over when I start drinking? Do I drink when I don't want to, when I have every reason not to? For no reason at all?

As for blaming bad behavior on alcoholism, people do that. To me it is a cop-out, but they do that.

You never answered my question. Are you alcoholic? If not, you are not qualified to talk about it. This isn't a game, alcoholics die of alcoholism. That is a fact. There are people that come to these forums dying of alcoholism. What can you offer them except your studies and intellectualizations of what alcoholism is or isn't. You are either an alcoholic or you are not.
And you wear this like a badge of honor? And don't forget your "disease" is doing pushups in the parking lot - yeah, someone's best thinking got him or her there with that statement. You bet. Look, I have a drinking "issue" and I am most certainly qualified to discuss it. In fact, I "earned my chair." Can you tell you are dealing with a seasoned member of AA?

You are also dealing with someone who used to do a LOT of speed and LSD. I dabbled in cocaine and angel dust and even snorted heroin once. Jimhere, it makes no difference what substance it is. A drug is a drug is a drug. And I am living proof of this. Oh, and SOMA is great too, along with Xanax and Klonopin. Those things just require scripts - at least these days in my world - which is why I have no scripts. My p-doc is too smart.
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:31 AM
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Jim why are you here?

Do you just like to argue?
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:07 AM
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Hi Everyone,

allport, you know, I have to be honest, there is something human in me that does like a good argument. Looking around on these forums, it seems I am in good company, LOL!

gneiss, what led me to believe that maybe you aren't alcoholic is that in another post you made a statement to the effect of saying that all drinkers lose control the way an alcoholic does. Maybe I should have said that you don't appear to understand alcoholism from experience. Maybe I made an assumption I shouldn't have made and apologies are in order. If so, please accept them.

Katie, I'll ignore the jabs and consider the source. Being alcoholic isn't a badge of honor, at least not to me. It doesn't make me special or one of the "chosen people," like some AA members believe. It just puts me in with about 10% of the human race that has alcoholism. And believe me, it ain't out there doing pushups. I know where alcoholism lies, it is within and not without. That being said, I've recovered so I don't worry if it's doing pushups in the parking lot or not. I used to do a lot of speed too. Used it to manage alcoholism. When the speed got to be a problem, I quit. Problem solved. That was six years before the end of my drinking. I can take or leave drugs, but not booze. So maybe speed was my drug of choice and booze was my drug of no choice.

And yes I know of your history with AA and of your alcoholism Katie. So you of all the people here should understand that this isn't a game, but a life-and-death affair. Didn't you say a few days ago that you are drinking again? You are not living proof that a drug is a drug is a drug, you are living proof of an alcoholic that can't stop drinking no matter what and if you don't get your head out of your ass you are going to die a slow, horrible, and undignified death. That I know to be true. Make a liar out of me.
Have a good day all.
Jim
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:00 AM
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It's cool jim. I think maybe you misunderstood what I said in the other thread? My point there was that nearly everyone drinks a bit too much from time to time but it does not make them an alcoholic.

I have to disagree with you that I have no functional understanding of alcoholism. My understanding of it is based on my experiences, as your understanding is based on your experiences. And I don't see how the two addictions are especially different; to me addiction is addiction. My meth addiction is probably a bit stronger than my alcohol addiction but it doesn't seem to make much difference in terms of what I have to do to stay off either of them.

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Old 04-27-2009, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jimhere View Post
And yes I know of your history with AA and of your alcoholism Katie. So you of all the people here should understand that this isn't a game, but a life-and-death affair. Didn't you say a few days ago that you are drinking again? You are not living proof that a drug is a drug is a drug, you are living proof of an alcoholic that can't stop drinking no matter what and if you don't get your head out of your ass you are going to die a slow, horrible, and undignified death. That I know to be true. Make a liar out of me.
Have a good day all.
Jim
And, Jim, you always do this, at least in my short-lived experience with you. You hit and run. What is up with this? Go the distance, man! (Oh, now you'll say you have a job, which is fair. I too had one, until I quit it. Notice - I quit). And I had zero time to EVER be on a forum.

Yes, I am living proof that a substance will kill a person. But I don't discriminate based on the substance. You do, for some odd reason. Gee, there is a reason I am going to rehab tonight and spilling my guts. No one, not even you, can accuse me of not trying.

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