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Old 04-27-2009, 12:00 PM
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Old 04-27-2009, 12:03 PM
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U can't take what a cop says about drugs seriously because of what you said but also because they've moralized the issue of drug use. Its funny in a sick way that they scare people by telling them that they'll end up in jail, but they're the ones who are gonna put them there. There's nothing immoral about doing drugs. Just like there's nothing immoral about gambling, going to a hooker, or shooting a gun. But lawmakers don't agree with me. So its just not cops, but drug policy itself that gives a false representation of drugs.
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by gneiss View Post
It's cool jim. I think maybe you misunderstood what I said in the other thread? My point there was that nearly everyone drinks a bit too much from time to time but it does not make them an alcoholic.

I have to disagree with you that I have no functional understanding of alcoholism. My understanding of it is based on my experiences, as your understanding is based on your experiences. And I don't see how the two addictions are especially different; to me addiction is addiction. My meth addiction is probably a bit stronger than my alcohol addiction but it doesn't seem to make much difference in terms of what I have to do to stay off either of them.

I get you. I agree that drinking alcohol no more makes one an alcoholic than does taking drugs make one a drug addict.

If you are an alcoholic, our experiences with alcohol are probably pretty similiar, aside from the drama that goes with it. I drank for the effect, I lose control of how much I drink, and I couldn't stop no matter what.

Where we differ in experience is with the drugs. I seem to be able to take or leave them. I stopped doing speed six years before I stopped drinking, and have never desired to do it again. Same with cocaine and other drugs. Now I'm saying that I could safely use drugs because I think that would take me back to what my real problem is. But since I've recovered from alcoholism, I haven't had any kind of desire to do drugs of any kind.

From what I've seen, one can be an alcoholic & a drug addict, just an alcoholic, just an addict, or none of the above. I happen to be an alcoholic who had a drug problem at one time. Make sense?
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
And, Jim, you always do this, at least in my short-lived experience with you. You hit and run. What is up with this? Go the distance, man! (Oh, now you'll say you have a job, which is fair. I too had one, until I quit it. Notice - I quit). And I had zero time to EVER be on a forum.

Yes, I am living proof that a substance will kill a person. But I don't discriminate based on the substance. You do, for some odd reason. Gee, there is a reason I am going to rehab tonight and spilling my guts. No one, not even you, can accuse me of not trying.

Katie
Sorry to have hit & run and leave you hanging. I did run out of time and had to go to work.

Please read my reply to gneiss in regards to my discriminating between substances...I'm too lazy to type that all over again.

Believe it or not, I don't want you to die, and yes you try. But, and maybe I'm getting the wrong impression, you seem to want to fight every inch of the way. Please don't get me wrong here either, because I'm not just throwing a cliche at you. Victory happens when the battle is over.
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jimhere View Post
Sorry to have hit & run and leave you hanging. I did run out of time and had to go to work.

Please read my reply to gneiss in regards to my discriminating between substances...I'm too lazy to type that all over again.

Believe it or not, I don't want you to die, and yes you try. But, and maybe I'm getting the wrong impression, you seem to want to fight every inch of the way. Please don't get me wrong here either, because I'm not just throwing a cliche at you. Victory happens when the battle is over.
Jim
You are 100% correct, I fight every inch of the way. For some reason I do this to both live and die. Talk about being confused! I think I'm a mental case, more than anything!
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
You are 100% correct, I fight every inch of the way. For some reason I do this to both live and die. Talk about being confused! I think I'm a mental case, more than anything!

Well, regardless of whether you are a mental case or not, you are a fellow alcoholic and I do want you to get well. Hope you don't mind if I keep you in my prayers.
Jim

p.s.-not hitting & running, but I need to take off.
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:43 PM
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Jim is trying to play mind games with everyone. The alcoholic label was invented by AA so it has everything to do with definitions. Its not like there's a word for alcoholic in every langauge and culture. Its exclusively BB talk. Once you identify as an "alcoholic" then the "alcoholic" solution is only possible through AA.. Since AA invented the word in the first place, it will always have one up on the other person. It's like asking someone if they're a sinner or not. Well, how can u be when there's no such thing as sin??? Alcoholism is not alcohol addiction. Alcoholism is an outdated stigmatizing concept that brings shame, fear, and self-loathing to so many people that it should be abolished.
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Eroica View Post
Jim is trying to play mind games with everyone. The alcoholic label was invented by AA so it has everything to do with definitions. Its not like there's a word for alcoholic in every langauge and culture. Its exclusively BB talk. Once you identify as an "alcoholic" then the "alcoholic" solution is only possible through AA.. Since AA invented the word in the first place, it will always have one up on the other person. It's like asking someone if they're a sinner or not. Well, how can u be when there's no such thing as sin??? Alcoholism is not alcohol addiction. Alcoholism is an outdated stigmatizing concept that brings shame, fear, and self-loathing to so many people that it should be abolished.
Do you really believe this,Where do you get your information? It'll be no suprise to hear me say I disagree with you completely, By the way, this has nothing to do with my friendship with Jim, he is a big boy and can take care of himself.

I am posting to suggest that you are coming from a place of emotionalism, which often clouds perception. That's a real nice way of saying, you have no idea what you are talking about, you are entitiled to your opinion, as I am mine, I find it's best to get the facts and become informed before throwing out opinions on topics which I know nothing about.
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Old 04-27-2009, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Eroica View Post
U can't take what a cop says about drugs seriously because of what you said but also because they've moralized the issue of drug use. Its funny in a sick way that they scare people by telling them that they'll end up in jail, but they're the ones who are gonna put them there. There's nothing immoral about doing drugs. Just like there's nothing immoral about gambling, going to a hooker, or shooting a gun. But lawmakers don't agree with me. So its just not cops, but drug policy itself that gives a false representation of drugs.
Good points. I wonder though, how true the bolded statement is. I suppose it depends on your particular morals. Not that I'm saying anyone has lower morals than I do (I maintain that I am no longer a good person since I started doing drugs, but I wonder how much of this is mental lag. I was definitely not a good person while on drugs but maybe I've started to get back to the person I used to be now that I have quit). Maybe drugs have different levels of morality? That might sound crazy, I don't really know.

But here's how I see it: smoking pot makes you a little paranoid then you fall asleep. How often do you hear about a pot smoker in a wild shoot-out with police? So maybe there's nothing immoral about it. I still don't think you're really hurting anyone by smoking a bit.

Meth and coke are a different story. They make you paranoid and you go crazy and hurt people. That hallucination about the cops I mentioned? The rest of the story is kind of scary. I flipped out, I was terrified and my bf started by trying to talk me out of it. When that didn't work and I continued to become more upset he had to physically restrain me, put me in a bear hug to keep me from hitting him. And when I continued to get worse it ended with me pinned on the couch in one of his wrestling holds (he wrestled for 18 years, even went to Olympic training camp) so I couldn't kick, scratch or bite him either. I was TERRIFIED of what was happening to me and because I was high I was terrified of him-- and for no reason, he might have done a number of things wrong (me too) but physical abuse was never among them. If I'd gotten a knife (he doesn't keep guns) one of us would have been hospitalized and the other in jail by the end of the night. And you know what? I've not hit another person EVER in my entire life.

That potential to do harm makes me think those harder drugs might be immoral. Then you have the whole issue of what happens to the money you spend to buy drugs, what that money supports.
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Old 04-27-2009, 08:26 PM
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Didn't mean to start debating.. I like you Jim but you have a huge sense of entitlement. You're saying I have nothing to offer but pushing Katie to her grave and calling her self-centered is helpful how exactly? There's my ESH. LOLOL
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Old 04-27-2009, 08:39 PM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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It's kind of circular reasoning, isn't it? If I say I'm an alcoholic, I am. If I say I'm not, I'm not. It completely depends on how I want to define it. But maybe that's kind of the point. It's a label, and I'm not convinced it matters what you want to call it, the point is your drinking or drugs or gambling or whatever is a problem FOR YOU. Really, what else matters? Maybe that's self-centered but frankly when I was using it really didn't matter to me how many problems it caused for other people. That was their problem, not mine. What made me stop is the problems it caused FOR ME.

One of my friends is in a wheelchair and I asked him if he preferred disabled or handicapped. He said, "Cripple. Call me a cripple. Makes no difference what label you stick on it, I can't walk." That's kinda how I feel about drugs and alcohol.
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Eroica View Post
Jim is trying to play mind games with everyone. The alcoholic label was invented by AA so it has everything to do with definitions. Its not like there's a word for alcoholic in every langauge and culture. Its exclusively BB talk. Once you identify as an "alcoholic" then the "alcoholic" solution is only possible through AA.. Since AA invented the word in the first place, it will always have one up on the other person. It's like asking someone if they're a sinner or not. Well, how can u be when there's no such thing as sin??? Alcoholism is not alcohol addiction. Alcoholism is an outdated stigmatizing concept that brings shame, fear, and self-loathing to so many people that it should be abolished.
Please let's not start making things up here! This has got to be one of the most imaginary and fantastic manifestations of denial that I've witnessed in recent memory: Just banish the word "alcoholism" and the condition vanishes????? Talk about mind games! Maybe we just need to try banishing the words "recession" and "partisanship" and "pandemic" and......

Oh, well, in the meantime, while we all wait with baited breath to see how well that "creative" little strategy works out for the world:

The term "alcoholism" was first used by Magnus Huss in his Chronische Alkoholskrankheit, published in 1852 -- which, by my calculations, would be over 80 years before the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Furthermore, the fact that a given culture does or does not have a word for a certain "thing" is no accurate indication of that thing's existence or non-existence. In fact, it is far more often an indication of either the fact that the culture does not value that particular "thing" and/or the fact that the culture is in deep denial about it.

And, I'm sorry, but no individual or small group of individuals gets to arbitrarily change what words are used by or what words mean for the speakers of an entire language. The idea that anyone might have the power or the right to do so totally undermines the purpose of human language -- which is to allow for effective communication between human beings. As far as the English language goes, the ultimate authority is the OED (Oxford English Dictionary), and if you get a chance to check one out, I'm pretty sure that, for "alcoholism" you'll find, not only its history preceding the founding of AA, but also the fact that it really does mean, among other things, "addiction to alcoholic liquor."

Finally, as I've said elsewhere in other contexts, if anyone's behavior is such that it causes him/her to feel shame, fear, self-loathing, etc.. when others discuss it truthfully and/or label it accurately, then the solution to that problem is for that individual to do what is necessary to change his/her behavior. Trying to forbid, or otherwise discourage, others from using the terms currently in use to correctly label that behavior is a blatant attempt to shift responsibility away from the person engaging in the behavior.

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Old 04-27-2009, 09:12 PM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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I didn't want to get into it, but I'm on board with Freya.

I'm not sure you're in denial or just plain ornery E...there were many things I disagreed with in your post but Freya got most of them, so I'll restrict my comments to myself:

I've never been to AA and I use the term alcoholic because it has a common parlance, regardless of its many definitions. I cannot control my drinking...If I start up again I believe I will die....alkie.

I'm ok with that. I use the common shorthand but only I define what it means to and for me. I can't control what it means to 'them'.

In the same way, I have cerebral palsy and I use cripple too - terms like differently abled mean nothing to me. (I also like to see people wince...it's a character flaw.)

But again, I define what that means, for myself - what other people think is beyond my control.

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Old 04-27-2009, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Eroica View Post
Didn't mean to start debating.. I like you Jim but you have a huge sense of entitlement. You're saying I have nothing to offer but pushing Katie to her grave and calling her self-centered is helpful how exactly? There's my ESH. LOLOL

Yes I'm saying you have nothing to offer to an alcoholic dying of alcoholism. It's quite obvious to me that you have no idea of what you are talking about. I died the living death of active alcoholism, damn near died period. I work in a detox facility, I see it every day close-up. It's real. If it wasn't called alcoholism, alcoholics would still die of it.

No one is pushing Katie to her grave, except maybe people like you who have no business even spouting opinions about about an experience you've never had. Besides that, she is doing a pretty good job of getting herself to the grave without any help.
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:12 AM
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I feel like I'm watching a tennis tournament. I wish John McEnroe was here.
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:37 AM
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I get mixed impressions reading this thread.

When drinking, do I have little or no control over the amount I take?

When not drinking, do I have little or no control over when I start drinking? Do I drink when I don't want to, when I have every reason not to? For no reason at all?
Okay, so I qualify as an alcoholic according to your criteria. It seems pretty random.
For example let's hypothetically assume that I drink only when I have a good reason to, or that I have control over when I start. Isn't alcoholism still a distinct possibility?
Or, let's assume that I can control the fact that I will not drink more than a specified amount, let's say twelve beers or three bottles of wine? Will that not also put me in the grave in short order?

What can you offer them except your studies and intellectualizations of what alcoholism is or isn't. You are either an alcoholic or you are not.
What recovering addicts can offer alcoholics is essentially the same set of experiences and techniques in recovery. Correct me if I'm wrong (I need to know).

You are not living proof that a drug is a drug is a drug, you are living proof of an alcoholic that can't stop drinking no matter what and if you don't get your head out of your ass you are going to die a slow, horrible, and undignified death.
Point taken. That completely sucks, but itís the truth. All of us should consider this every time we even think about drinking or using.

I drank for the effect, I lose control of how much I drink, and I couldn't stop no matter what.
Do you think this only applies to 10% of the human population? I only wish that were the caseÖ

It's tough to nail this one down. We can determine how much alcohol is being consumed based upon sales. We can determine frequency preferences and habits by conducting surveys. We can estimate how many alcoholics are out there by looking at the incidence of death from things like cirrhosis, alcohol poisoning or drunk driving. But would you really want that on your mother's death certificate?

Victory happens when the battle is over.
Well said. I appreciate that statement.

it really does mean, among other things, "addiction to alcoholic liquor."
Now we have a definition, half of which pretains to addiction. Does it not stand to reason that someone recovering from an addiction would have insights about addiction?

My only concern is that this is not some kind of exclusive club that we all come in and join if our life stories match the textbook definition or the admission criteria.
I hope we donít develop some kind of aloof clique where peopleís opinions and beliefs donít matter unless they are alcoholics; anyone in recovery could offer insight.
Help is where you find it.
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Old 04-28-2009, 08:33 AM
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1."Or, let's assume that I can control the fact that I will not drink more than a specified amount, let's say twelve beers or three bottles of wine? Will that not also put me in the grave in short order?"

Yes it will, but it's not alcoholism. It's called drinking too much or hard drinking. There are people that can drink tremendous amounts of alcohol, get in trouble, get DUI's, end up in treatment centers, and may even need medical detoxification, but give them a good reason and they will stop or moderate.

I don't really care about theories and assumptions. Alcoholics dying of alcoholism is not a theory or an assumption. It is a fact. A true alcoholic will not be able to moderate his drinking or stop simply because he desires to.

2."Okay, so I qualify as an alcoholic according to your criteria."

Let's not give me any more credit than I deserve. Why does everyone on this forum think that this stuff is something I came up with?


3."What recovering addicts can offer alcoholics is essentially the same set of experiences and techniques in recovery. Correct me if I'm wrong (I need to know)."

Well, to begin with recovering addicts can't offer an alcoholic anything in the way of the same set of experiences, because the two are different. However as a recovered alcoholic, I can reach an alcoholic that is still suffering because I have been there. It's not something I read in a book or learned in college. Then, if we reach and understanding of commonality, I can show him precisely how I recovered.

4. "Do you think this only applies to 10% of the human population? I only wish that were the case…

It's tough to nail this one down. We can determine how much alcohol is being consumed based upon sales. We can determine frequency preferences and habits by conducting surveys. We can estimate how many alcoholics are out there by looking at the incidence of death from things like cirrhosis, alcohol poisoning or drunk driving. But would you really want that on your mother's death certificate?"

Only about ten percent of the population is alcoholic, but does it matter what the percentage is? It kills. What does my mother's death certificate have to do with it? But it was on five of my uncle's and grandpa's death certificates on my mother's side of the family.

5. "I hope we don’t develop some kind of aloof clique where people’s opinions and beliefs don’t matter unless they are alcoholics; anyone in recovery could offer insight."

When it comes to working with alcoholics, with a few rare exceptions, people's opinions and beliefs don't matter to me at all unless they are alcoholic. Like I said, you can read a book about being an astronaut, but it doesn't make you an astronaut. Someone recovering from meth or crack can't offer me any insight at all about what it's like to be an alcoholic. I'm not interested in someone's opinion of an experience they've never had.
Jim
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Old 04-28-2009, 08:52 AM
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This is confusing...
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Old 04-28-2009, 10:01 AM
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anyone in recovery could offer insight.
Hurray! Sane words!
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Old 04-28-2009, 10:42 AM
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You can say I'm in denial all you want.. but if the alcoholism label was helpful then the AA treatment model would be more successful. The 12 step movement popularlized it, not science. I'm honestly happy the label has served all the AAers. And of course it would, its a de facto Step 1. If you don't believe that people become powerless over things (loss of control), then you naturally wouldnt believe that you became powerless over drugs.

Now addiction is real. But do all addicts lose control every time they use? Of course not. Even the hardest drinker could stop after drink number 1 if a gun was held to his head. There's no evidence to support the magical out of control theory.
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