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Ok, the crux of the matter

Old 03-31-2009, 03:07 PM
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Ok, the crux of the matter

Addiction has nothing to do with spirituality. Even I will admit there is value in spirituality. Still, the only treatment these days, by and large, is to admit you have some spiritual defects and thereby get cured.

Why, oh why, must we be saddled down with this albatross? I've read the book called "Noonday Demons." A couple of hundred years ago they locked people up for being depressed. It's taken ALL THIS TIME to figure out that those of us who ARE depressed have a brain problem. Why, oh why, can't more strides be made with respect to the whole issue of addiction?

I so long for the day in which this whole thing will be figured out to be an imbalance in neurotransmitters. Until that time, I just have to plod along. Worst thing is, it won't even come in my lifetime.

I write this as I just got an email telling me to turn it all over and relinquish myself to God - to cure everything. Sigh.
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Old 03-31-2009, 03:42 PM
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Gawd forbid it be something as horrible and satanic as SCIENCE !!!

Gawd forbid we practice behavior modification !!!
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Old 03-31-2009, 03:46 PM
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Hello, Katie. I still have hope that things will improve and there will be more intensive research to come. The more we speak up to our health care providers the more chance for change. I'm trying hard to be an advocate for my health right now.

I was talking about this with a friend a couple of days ago who is a social worker. She's worked with the mentally ill population for some time and believes that many addicts (not all) should be duel-diagnosed. She said when it comes to mental illness plus addiction, state agencies (social work) across the nation handle this issue in different ways--and of course people hop from one person to the next to get everything treated…it’s a mess.




…I think that once business folk realize how much money could be gained, they'll be all about funding addiction studies.
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Old 03-31-2009, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
I write this as I just got an email telling me to turn it all over and relinquish myself to God - to cure everything.
So you are getting my emails...
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Old 03-31-2009, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
So you are getting my emails...
Oh dude, I am LOLin
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Old 03-31-2009, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
So you are getting my emails...

LOL, yes, I told you to stop emailing me with that stuff!

At any rate, I was just thinking. Without starting another thread, I hypothesize that those of us with a secular bent are liberal politically. Am I right? Ok, here is Katie's SUPER informal poll

You know, when I got that email my heart just sort of sank. Of course, I did respond as it did raise the hair on the back of my neck! Somehow, I don't think I'll be getting a return email.
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Old 03-31-2009, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
Somehow, I don't think I'll be getting a return email.
Or it'll make them more persistent.

Politically liberal here (and that does not mean I'm claiming a party).
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Old 03-31-2009, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
LOL, yes, I told you to stop emailing me with that stuff!

At any rate, I was just thinking. Without starting another thread, I hypothesize that those of us with a secular bent are liberal politically. Am I right? Ok, here is Katie's SUPER informal poll

You know, when I got that email my heart just sort of sank. Of course, I did respond as it did raise the hair on the back of my neck! Somehow, I don't think I'll be getting a return email.
Hi Katie,

Just so you know, and you already know that I am not of a secular bent, I am pretty liberal politically. I try not to put people in a box based on personality, belief, etc.

Good luck in your search for whatever it is you're looking for.
Jim
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Old 03-31-2009, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
Without starting another thread, I hypothesize that those of us with a secular bent are liberal politically. Am I right?
Guilty
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Old 03-31-2009, 07:13 PM
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AHA! That is four for the liberals here. I do tend to equate agnostocism, atheism and liberalism as having fairly close ties, but I could be wrong!

The emailer (to me) is a conservative and religious and an AAer. Ok, so maybe at times I have too much time on my hands to think, admittedly.
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Old 03-31-2009, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bamboozle View Post
Hello, Katie. I still have hope that things will improve and there will be more intensive research to come. The more we speak up to our health care providers the more chance for change. I'm trying hard to be an advocate for my health right now.

I was talking about this with a friend a couple of days ago who is a social worker. She's worked with the mentally ill population for some time and believes that many addicts (not all) should be duel-diagnosed. She said when it comes to mental illness plus addiction, state agencies (social work) across the nation handle this issue in different ways--and of course people hop from one person to the next to get everything treated…it’s a mess.




…I think that once business folk realize how much money could be gained, they'll be all about funding addiction studies.
Thanks, Bam. I know I gave my primary care Dr. this website. He refers people out to AA as a matter of routine, but maybe he'll remember this website. I've also told my shrink about SMART. I do believe we DO need to educate our health care providers. They are, after all, on the front lines. Addiction is something, I am sure, they'd just as soon not to have to deal with. So maybe little by little we can chip away at things and raise levels of awareness.

I do know LifeRing now offers meetings at Kaiser Permanente in the Bay Area in lieu of AA. It IS a start.
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:56 PM
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Cool To Thine Own Self Be True

Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
Addiction has nothing to do with spirituality. Even I will admit there is value in spirituality.

I write this as I just got an email telling me to turn it all over and relinquish myself to God - to cure everything. Sigh.
well that is a generalized statement and a narrow opinion about addiction.

how does this sound to you Katie: "Addiction has everything to do with spirituality... " -- sounds un-informed to me.

i am an addict Katie, and not only does my addiction have something [not everything lol] to do with spiriuality so does my recovery... so there.... lol

as for turning it "all over to God" to cure everything... well that's also a statement that means not much to a resonable person i would think. i'm a Christian and i have no understanding or belief that God will cure "everything" i turn over to him... thats not how it works. Theres a better plan unfolding then that simplistic idealism.

well, there it is. absolute statements about other people generally and their lives specifically often become infamous and cheap.

i appreciate that you can totally recover with out spiritualty, thats okay for me. it works for you and that is important and worthy. "addiction has nothing to do with YOUR spirituality" is great.

i'm just saying is all...

RR
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Old 03-31-2009, 09:10 PM
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Politically I'm closer to a socialist than anything else. I do like to see addiction as a brain disorder or even calling it a brain disease is cool by me.
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Old 03-31-2009, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by zencat View Post
Politically I'm closer to a socialist than anything else. I do like to see addiction as a brain disorder or even calling it a brain disease is cool by me.
Yeah, me too. I am a 100% Nordic person by heritage (Sweden and Norway), so I totally identify with socialism and support it. The Nordic people are infamous for alcoholism. I've studied it a lot. There are all sorts of explanations, but my favorite comes down to Darwinism. And, yes, I am a product of that as well. Anyway, thanks for weighing in!
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Old 03-31-2009, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
Yeah, me too. I am a 100% Nordic person by heritage (Sweden and Norway), so I totally identify with socialism and support it. The Nordic people are infamous for alcoholism. I've studied it a lot. There are all sorts of explanations, but my favorite comes down to Darwinism. And, yes, I am a product of that as well. Anyway, thanks for weighing in!
I thought the long winter nights might have something as a contributor to the alcoholism rate up there...maybe...I don't know.
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Old 03-31-2009, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by zencat View Post
I thought the long winter nights might have something as a contributor to the alcoholism rate up there...maybe...I don't know.
Well, since you are curious I will share this. The native American Indians have an alcoholism rate which is outstanding. Why? Because they've only had alcohol in their culture for 300 years. The Nordic people have only had it in their grips for 1500 years. Contrast this with those of Mediterranean countries - 7000 years. What this basically means is that the weak genetic links get tossed out. There IS a reason that those of southern European descent can drink and handle alcohol. Anyone who could not was weeded out. I have two uncles, neither of whom had children and were alcoholics - genes weeded out. Count me in - genes weeded out.

The thing I find fascinating are the Asians. For some reason or another, their livers don't process alcohol like so many Westerners do. There is info on the Net, but I can attest to this, having lived among so many of them.

Basically, the strong survive and the weak do not. Hence, Darwinism. At any rate, just the ramblings from Katie here. But there is plenty of stuff out there on the Net to substantiate what I am saying. I've had a vested interest in this whole deal.

Oh, and the long nights and limited sunshine may well have something to do with it. The suicide rate is huge in Scandinavia. Depression abounds. But, who is to say which came first?
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Old 03-31-2009, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
Yeah, me too. I am a 100% Nordic person by heritage (Sweden and Norway), so I totally identify with socialism and support it. The Nordic people are infamous for alcoholism. I've studied it a lot. There are all sorts of explanations, but my favorite comes down to Darwinism. And, yes, I am a product of that as well. Anyway, thanks for weighing in!
FINLANDIA!! My great grandmother moved to the US at age 16, and no kidding, every day of her life since she was 15 she drank 5-6 oz. of vodka with her dinner (I'm sure she could stop anytime she wanted to?? Haha). She died at 103, with my aunt smuggling vodka into her nursing home daily.

The summer I turned 21 I studied in Russia; prior to that I never really drank much. So I learned to drink on straight shots of vodka at these insane parties. Russia's another country with insanely high alcoholism rates.

I consider myself something approaching a socialist, but really I don't see what my ethnic heritage has to do with that... unless you're talking... Social Darwinism? Political ideas are not genetic traits handed down.
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Old 03-31-2009, 09:57 PM
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Cool...I've taken an interest in addictions disorders for some time now. Yea the history of people with alcohol use and genetics. Its been a will since I have read up on that but I believe your right on. I remember there is a cultural/ritual connection to alcohol that can help one avoid alcoholism too. Unlike America where the ritual use of alcohol is pretty much any time...LOL
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Old 03-31-2009, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
Well, since you are curious I will share this. The native American Indians have an alcoholism rate which is outstanding. Why? Because they've only had alcohol in their culture for 300 years. The Nordic people have only had it in their grips for 1500 years. Contrast this with those of Mediterranean countries - 7000 years. What this basically means is that the weak genetic links get tossed out. There IS a reason that those of southern European descent can drink and handle alcohol. Anyone who could not was weeded out. I have two uncles, neither of whom had children and were alcoholics - genes weeded out. Count me in - genes weeded out.
I disagree with this. There is no evolutionary advantage to being able to drink huge amounts of alcohol. IMO, the majority of people from any given culture will never consume the amount of alcohol that alcoholics are accustomed to drinking, so drinking should play no part in who is weeded out. You're making it sound like drinking is not a choice at all. Even in cultures where drinking plays an integral part in daily life, people drink moderate amounts. If people who couldn't handle their liquor were at increased risk of alcoholism, then Asian countries would have high alcoholism rates, but they don't. Also, every one becomes at risk for alcohol-related disease if they drink more than 2-3 drinks a day, even if they're not an alcoholic.

Last edited by Eroica; 03-31-2009 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Eroica View Post
There is no evolutionary advantage to drinking huge amounts of alcohol. IMO, the majority of people from any given culture will never consume the amount of alcohol that alcoholics are accustomed to drinking, so drinking should play no part in who is weeded out.

Also, every one becomes at risk for alcohol-related disease if they drink more than 2-3 drinks a day, even if they're not an alcoholic.
There is an evolutionary advantage to drinking: it's a social tool. Having a family group and friends is biologically useful; it keeps us safe from attack, and allows us to meet people with whom we can reproduce. And social bonds are cemented by having a good time together, which means to some extent drinking can be encouraged. The genetics allowing addiction at lower rates of consumption then come into play. Those people start drinking more, become more likely to develop alcohol-related disease, are in generally poorer health and therefore less likely to have children (and those children are likely to be in poorer health. Plus we know addiction is at least partially genetic). Multiply over generations and voila, you have what Katie was talking about.

And don't underestimate that biologic need to have a group: how many here started drinking a little bit because their friends were drinking and they wanted to be part of the group?

(I am not a nerd. I am not a nerd. I am not a nerd. Just because I figure out the chemistry of my DOCs and ponder the evolutionary functions of alcohol does not make.... damn. I'm a nerd.)
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