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-   -   Ok, the crux of the matter (https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/secular-connections/173141-ok-crux-matter.html)

Katie09 03-31-2009 02:07 PM

Ok, the crux of the matter
 
Addiction has nothing to do with spirituality. Even I will admit there is value in spirituality. Still, the only treatment these days, by and large, is to admit you have some spiritual defects and thereby get cured.

Why, oh why, must we be saddled down with this albatross? I've read the book called "Noonday Demons." A couple of hundred years ago they locked people up for being depressed. It's taken ALL THIS TIME to figure out that those of us who ARE depressed have a brain problem. Why, oh why, can't more strides be made with respect to the whole issue of addiction?

I so long for the day in which this whole thing will be figured out to be an imbalance in neurotransmitters. Until that time, I just have to plod along. Worst thing is, it won't even come in my lifetime.

I write this as I just got an email telling me to turn it all over and relinquish myself to God - to cure everything. Sigh.

windysan 03-31-2009 02:42 PM

Gawd forbid it be something as horrible and satanic as SCIENCE !!!

Gawd forbid we practice behavior modification !!!

Bamboozle 03-31-2009 02:46 PM

Hello, Katie. I still have hope that things will improve and there will be more intensive research to come. The more we speak up to our health care providers the more chance for change. I'm trying hard to be an advocate for my health right now.

I was talking about this with a friend a couple of days ago who is a social worker. She's worked with the mentally ill population for some time and believes that many addicts (not all) should be duel-diagnosed. She said when it comes to mental illness plus addiction, state agencies (social work) across the nation handle this issue in different ways--and of course people hop from one person to the next to get everything treated…it’s a mess.




…I think that once business folk realize how much money could be gained, they'll be all about funding addiction studies.

doorknob 03-31-2009 04:55 PM


Originally Posted by Katie09 (Post 2173822)
I write this as I just got an email telling me to turn it all over and relinquish myself to God - to cure everything.

So you are getting my emails... :lmao

windysan 03-31-2009 05:21 PM


Originally Posted by doorknob (Post 2174044)
So you are getting my emails... :lmao

Oh dude, I am LOLin

Katie09 03-31-2009 05:45 PM


Originally Posted by doorknob (Post 2174044)
So you are getting my emails... :lmao


LOL, yes, I told you to stop emailing me with that stuff!

At any rate, I was just thinking. Without starting another thread, I hypothesize that those of us with a secular bent are liberal politically. Am I right? Ok, here is Katie's SUPER informal poll :)

You know, when I got that email my heart just sort of sank. Of course, I did respond as it did raise the hair on the back of my neck! Somehow, I don't think I'll be getting a return email.

gneiss 03-31-2009 05:51 PM


Originally Posted by Katie09 (Post 2174101)
Somehow, I don't think I'll be getting a return email.

Or it'll make them more persistent. :D

Politically liberal here (and that does not mean I'm claiming a party).

jimhere 03-31-2009 06:01 PM


Originally Posted by Katie09 (Post 2174101)
LOL, yes, I told you to stop emailing me with that stuff!

At any rate, I was just thinking. Without starting another thread, I hypothesize that those of us with a secular bent are liberal politically. Am I right? Ok, here is Katie's SUPER informal poll :)

You know, when I got that email my heart just sort of sank. Of course, I did respond as it did raise the hair on the back of my neck! Somehow, I don't think I'll be getting a return email.

Hi Katie,

Just so you know, and you already know that I am not of a secular bent, I am pretty liberal politically. I try not to put people in a box based on personality, belief, etc.

Good luck in your search for whatever it is you're looking for.
Jim

geoff 03-31-2009 06:02 PM


Originally Posted by Katie09 (Post 2174101)
Without starting another thread, I hypothesize that those of us with a secular bent are liberal politically. Am I right?

Guilty

Katie09 03-31-2009 06:13 PM

AHA! That is four for the liberals here. I do tend to equate agnostocism, atheism and liberalism as having fairly close ties, but I could be wrong!

The emailer (to me) is a conservative and religious and an AAer. Ok, so maybe at times I have too much time on my hands to think, admittedly. :)

Katie09 03-31-2009 06:20 PM


Originally Posted by Bamboozle (Post 2173883)
Hello, Katie. I still have hope that things will improve and there will be more intensive research to come. The more we speak up to our health care providers the more chance for change. I'm trying hard to be an advocate for my health right now.

I was talking about this with a friend a couple of days ago who is a social worker. She's worked with the mentally ill population for some time and believes that many addicts (not all) should be duel-diagnosed. She said when it comes to mental illness plus addiction, state agencies (social work) across the nation handle this issue in different ways--and of course people hop from one person to the next to get everything treated…it’s a mess.




…I think that once business folk realize how much money could be gained, they'll be all about funding addiction studies.

Thanks, Bam. I know I gave my primary care Dr. this website. He refers people out to AA as a matter of routine, but maybe he'll remember this website. I've also told my shrink about SMART. I do believe we DO need to educate our health care providers. They are, after all, on the front lines. Addiction is something, I am sure, they'd just as soon not to have to deal with. So maybe little by little we can chip away at things and raise levels of awareness.

I do know LifeRing now offers meetings at Kaiser Permanente in the Bay Area in lieu of AA. It IS a start.

RobbyRobot 03-31-2009 07:56 PM

To Thine Own Self Be True
 

Originally Posted by Katie09 (Post 2173822)
Addiction has nothing to do with spirituality. Even I will admit there is value in spirituality.

I write this as I just got an email telling me to turn it all over and relinquish myself to God - to cure everything. Sigh.

well that is a generalized statement and a narrow opinion about addiction.

how does this sound to you Katie: "Addiction has everything to do with spirituality... " -- sounds un-informed to me.

i am an addict Katie, and not only does my addiction have something [not everything lol] to do with spiriuality so does my recovery... :) so there.... lol

as for turning it "all over to God" to cure everything... well that's also a statement that means not much to a resonable person i would think. i'm a Christian and i have no understanding or belief that God will cure "everything" i turn over to him... thats not how it works. Theres a better plan unfolding then that simplistic idealism. :)

well, there it is. absolute statements about other people generally and their lives specifically often become infamous and cheap.

i appreciate that you can totally recover with out spiritualty, thats okay for me. it works for you and that is important and worthy. "addiction has nothing to do with YOUR spirituality" is great. :)

i'm just saying is all...

RR

Zencat 03-31-2009 08:10 PM

Politically I'm closer to a socialist than anything else. I do like to see addiction as a brain disorder or even calling it a brain disease is cool by me.

Katie09 03-31-2009 08:17 PM


Originally Posted by zencat (Post 2174285)
Politically I'm closer to a socialist than anything else. I do like to see addiction as a brain disorder or even calling it a brain disease is cool by me.

Yeah, me too. I am a 100% Nordic person by heritage (Sweden and Norway), so I totally identify with socialism and support it. The Nordic people are infamous for alcoholism. I've studied it a lot. There are all sorts of explanations, but my favorite comes down to Darwinism. And, yes, I am a product of that as well. Anyway, thanks for weighing in!

Zencat 03-31-2009 08:26 PM


Originally Posted by Katie09 (Post 2174293)
Yeah, me too. I am a 100% Nordic person by heritage (Sweden and Norway), so I totally identify with socialism and support it. The Nordic people are infamous for alcoholism. I've studied it a lot. There are all sorts of explanations, but my favorite comes down to Darwinism. And, yes, I am a product of that as well. Anyway, thanks for weighing in!

I thought the long winter nights might have something as a contributor to the alcoholism rate up there...maybe...I don't know.

Katie09 03-31-2009 08:43 PM


Originally Posted by zencat (Post 2174309)
I thought the long winter nights might have something as a contributor to the alcoholism rate up there...maybe...I don't know.

Well, since you are curious I will share this. The native American Indians have an alcoholism rate which is outstanding. Why? Because they've only had alcohol in their culture for 300 years. The Nordic people have only had it in their grips for 1500 years. Contrast this with those of Mediterranean countries - 7000 years. What this basically means is that the weak genetic links get tossed out. There IS a reason that those of southern European descent can drink and handle alcohol. Anyone who could not was weeded out. I have two uncles, neither of whom had children and were alcoholics - genes weeded out. Count me in - genes weeded out.

The thing I find fascinating are the Asians. For some reason or another, their livers don't process alcohol like so many Westerners do. There is info on the Net, but I can attest to this, having lived among so many of them.

Basically, the strong survive and the weak do not. Hence, Darwinism. At any rate, just the ramblings from Katie here. But there is plenty of stuff out there on the Net to substantiate what I am saying. I've had a vested interest in this whole deal. :)

Oh, and the long nights and limited sunshine may well have something to do with it. The suicide rate is huge in Scandinavia. Depression abounds. But, who is to say which came first?

gneiss 03-31-2009 08:56 PM


Originally Posted by Katie09 (Post 2174293)
Yeah, me too. I am a 100% Nordic person by heritage (Sweden and Norway), so I totally identify with socialism and support it. The Nordic people are infamous for alcoholism. I've studied it a lot. There are all sorts of explanations, but my favorite comes down to Darwinism. And, yes, I am a product of that as well. Anyway, thanks for weighing in!

FINLANDIA!! My great grandmother moved to the US at age 16, and no kidding, every day of her life since she was 15 she drank 5-6 oz. of vodka with her dinner (I'm sure she could stop anytime she wanted to?? Haha). She died at 103, with my aunt smuggling vodka into her nursing home daily.

The summer I turned 21 I studied in Russia; prior to that I never really drank much. So I learned to drink on straight shots of vodka at these insane parties. Russia's another country with insanely high alcoholism rates.

I consider myself something approaching a socialist, but really I don't see what my ethnic heritage has to do with that... unless you're talking... Social Darwinism? :lmao Political ideas are not genetic traits handed down.

Zencat 03-31-2009 08:57 PM

Cool...I've taken an interest in addictions disorders for some time now. Yea the history of people with alcohol use and genetics. Its been a will since I have read up on that but I believe your right on. I remember there is a cultural/ritual connection to alcohol that can help one avoid alcoholism too. Unlike America where the ritual use of alcohol is pretty much any time...LOL

Eroica 03-31-2009 09:43 PM


Originally Posted by Katie09 (Post 2174328)
Well, since you are curious I will share this. The native American Indians have an alcoholism rate which is outstanding. Why? Because they've only had alcohol in their culture for 300 years. The Nordic people have only had it in their grips for 1500 years. Contrast this with those of Mediterranean countries - 7000 years. What this basically means is that the weak genetic links get tossed out. There IS a reason that those of southern European descent can drink and handle alcohol. Anyone who could not was weeded out. I have two uncles, neither of whom had children and were alcoholics - genes weeded out. Count me in - genes weeded out.

I disagree with this. There is no evolutionary advantage to being able to drink huge amounts of alcohol. IMO, the majority of people from any given culture will never consume the amount of alcohol that alcoholics are accustomed to drinking, so drinking should play no part in who is weeded out. You're making it sound like drinking is not a choice at all. Even in cultures where drinking plays an integral part in daily life, people drink moderate amounts. If people who couldn't handle their liquor were at increased risk of alcoholism, then Asian countries would have high alcoholism rates, but they don't. Also, every one becomes at risk for alcohol-related disease if they drink more than 2-3 drinks a day, even if they're not an alcoholic.

gneiss 03-31-2009 10:08 PM


Originally Posted by Eroica (Post 2174378)
There is no evolutionary advantage to drinking huge amounts of alcohol. IMO, the majority of people from any given culture will never consume the amount of alcohol that alcoholics are accustomed to drinking, so drinking should play no part in who is weeded out.

Also, every one becomes at risk for alcohol-related disease if they drink more than 2-3 drinks a day, even if they're not an alcoholic.

There is an evolutionary advantage to drinking: it's a social tool. Having a family group and friends is biologically useful; it keeps us safe from attack, and allows us to meet people with whom we can reproduce. And social bonds are cemented by having a good time together, which means to some extent drinking can be encouraged. The genetics allowing addiction at lower rates of consumption then come into play. Those people start drinking more, become more likely to develop alcohol-related disease, are in generally poorer health and therefore less likely to have children (and those children are likely to be in poorer health. Plus we know addiction is at least partially genetic). Multiply over generations and voila, you have what Katie was talking about.

And don't underestimate that biologic need to have a group: how many here started drinking a little bit because their friends were drinking and they wanted to be part of the group?

(I am not a nerd. I am not a nerd. I am not a nerd. Just because I figure out the chemistry of my DOCs and ponder the evolutionary functions of alcohol does not make.... damn. I'm a nerd.) :D

Dee74 03-31-2009 10:42 PM

It's April 1 there, right Gneiss?

D

Jules62 03-31-2009 10:46 PM


There is an evolutionary advantage to drinking
Look around you here.I bet you can't find a single person here who would agree with you.It has all but robbed us of everything we held dear.It has taken, hurt, maimed and sucked the very life out of just about everyone who stumbles in here wounded and desperate for help.

What utter rubbish.

gneiss 03-31-2009 11:07 PM


Originally Posted by Jules62 (Post 2174416)
Look around you here.I bet you can't find a single person here who would agree with you.It has all but robbed us of everything we held dear.It has taken, hurt, maimed and sucked the very life out of just about everyone who stumbles in here wounded and desperate for help.

What utter rubbish.

For normal drinkers, it is a social advantage. We aren't normal, we're addicts. We're the weak links here, biologically. Most people can have a drink and it has no negative consequences. We aren't most people.

Biologically all that crappy stuff about alcohol you listed-- how much it sucks out every part of your life-- doesn't matter except as it pertains to making babies. And the crappy stuff about alcohol makes alcoholics less likely to reproduce, once addicted. And we're back to where we started with Katie's comments regarding different ethnic groups.

I won't argue for a second that alcohol does all you said above. If you use too much or too often it takes away everything. But I'm not talking about anything other than the biology of it. We hear all the time that addiction is genetic; I thought the medical community accepted that, by and large. Are you refuting that?

I proposed an explanation for genetically inherited addiction. If you have a better biological argument, post it. I love this stuff, I'm in grad school for paleontology and evolutionary science, and I'd be happy to talk. :)

sfgirl 04-01-2009 12:33 AM

Gneiss—

While I get what you are saying, I am not sure I would go so far as to say evolutionary advantage. To me that means something that is long-term and widespread where I think that the social advantage of drinking is something that is extremely cultural and can depending on government regulations can shift. It probably even depends on what social circles you move in. I think a prime example is looking at the history of alcohol consumption in Russia which has widely varied with state regulation and different regime changes. I think in the 1900s in Russia there was one point early on where virtually no one drank and then there was another point probably around the 80s where their mortality rate was significantly affected because of widespread alcoholism. In America and Europe we have very similar attitudes towards alcohol and probably precisely because it is socially advantageous to a certain extent we probably have a much higher percentage of alcoholics than a country like India that has numerous states that are completely dry, doesn't really have bars or bar culture. I remember traveling there and one day while I was there it was their independence day, which meant it was a dry day. No where could sell alcohol and I mean no where, I was in ****** and not even the fanciest hotel would serve me cocktails, I had to hustle beer on the black market, which now looking back was a sure sign that I had a problem. I couldn't understand it since in the US alcohol is so interwoven with celebrations and in India for every celebratory holiday no liquor, beer, or wine is allowed to be sold. It is a very different way to look at alcohol. I think it is interesting to think of the role culture and therefore access plays into it all.

Dee74 04-01-2009 12:36 AM

I'm not a scientist, but even I'm aware of things like the drunken money thesis - a nose for alcohol leads some of mans ancestors to the ripest fruit - they live.

I'm aware about theories that give evolutionary credence to creativity and euphoria and problem solving and the like.

I'm aware of suggestions that for many centuries to drink alcohol was actually more healthy than to drink the water - cholera typhoid etc

In the end, they're just theories.
In the end - here on a recovery board - so what?

I don't really think all theories do us - we the people reading this - good service.

I read a theory recently that binge drinking may be a kind of behavourial memory back to the days when wine could, and did, go bad quickly.

'Oh, it's entrenched then. Damn....'

Not the best message to have on a recovery site.

See where I'm going with this?

This is real life, real people - it's not grad school where the air can tend get a little...rareified.
(and yes I've been there)

D

Jules62 04-01-2009 12:49 AM


I proposed an explanation for genetically inherited addiction.
No-you proposed there was an advantage to it.

I do believe there is a genetic element to alcoholism.It's certainly in my family.

I've yet to see it as a good thing, in my life, my family's life or in the lives of anyone here at SR.That's all I'm saying.

I have no desire to argue.At all.

Jules.

gneiss 04-01-2009 04:42 AM


Originally Posted by Jules62 (Post 2174469)
No-you proposed there was an advantage to it.

I have no desire to argue.At all.

Jules.

Cool. But just to clear up, I did not propose that there is an advantage to addiction. I proposed it was the genetically unfavorable outcome. It's the weak gene. I said there's a social advantage to drinking, which could have a correlation to a biologic advantage in having a group. That does not mean addiction is favorable, and I have no idea how you got from what I said to that.

But... whatever. Time to go to work.

windysan 04-01-2009 04:57 AM

Libertarian. Do whatever you want but stay outta my bedroom and my wallet.

Bamboozle 04-01-2009 06:28 AM

I'm a fairly liberal person who will not choose a party group.


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