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Ok, the crux of the matter

Old 03-31-2009, 11:42 PM
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It's April 1 there, right Gneiss?

D
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:46 PM
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There is an evolutionary advantage to drinking
Look around you here.I bet you can't find a single person here who would agree with you.It has all but robbed us of everything we held dear.It has taken, hurt, maimed and sucked the very life out of just about everyone who stumbles in here wounded and desperate for help.

What utter rubbish.
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Old 04-01-2009, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Jules62 View Post
Look around you here.I bet you can't find a single person here who would agree with you.It has all but robbed us of everything we held dear.It has taken, hurt, maimed and sucked the very life out of just about everyone who stumbles in here wounded and desperate for help.

What utter rubbish.
For normal drinkers, it is a social advantage. We aren't normal, we're addicts. We're the weak links here, biologically. Most people can have a drink and it has no negative consequences. We aren't most people.

Biologically all that crappy stuff about alcohol you listed-- how much it sucks out every part of your life-- doesn't matter except as it pertains to making babies. And the crappy stuff about alcohol makes alcoholics less likely to reproduce, once addicted. And we're back to where we started with Katie's comments regarding different ethnic groups.

I won't argue for a second that alcohol does all you said above. If you use too much or too often it takes away everything. But I'm not talking about anything other than the biology of it. We hear all the time that addiction is genetic; I thought the medical community accepted that, by and large. Are you refuting that?

I proposed an explanation for genetically inherited addiction. If you have a better biological argument, post it. I love this stuff, I'm in grad school for paleontology and evolutionary science, and I'd be happy to talk.
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Old 04-01-2009, 01:33 AM
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Gneiss—

While I get what you are saying, I am not sure I would go so far as to say evolutionary advantage. To me that means something that is long-term and widespread where I think that the social advantage of drinking is something that is extremely cultural and can depending on government regulations can shift. It probably even depends on what social circles you move in. I think a prime example is looking at the history of alcohol consumption in Russia which has widely varied with state regulation and different regime changes. I think in the 1900s in Russia there was one point early on where virtually no one drank and then there was another point probably around the 80s where their mortality rate was significantly affected because of widespread alcoholism. In America and Europe we have very similar attitudes towards alcohol and probably precisely because it is socially advantageous to a certain extent we probably have a much higher percentage of alcoholics than a country like India that has numerous states that are completely dry, doesn't really have bars or bar culture. I remember traveling there and one day while I was there it was their independence day, which meant it was a dry day. No where could sell alcohol and I mean no where, I was in ****** and not even the fanciest hotel would serve me cocktails, I had to hustle beer on the black market, which now looking back was a sure sign that I had a problem. I couldn't understand it since in the US alcohol is so interwoven with celebrations and in India for every celebratory holiday no liquor, beer, or wine is allowed to be sold. It is a very different way to look at alcohol. I think it is interesting to think of the role culture and therefore access plays into it all.
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Old 04-01-2009, 01:36 AM
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I'm not a scientist, but even I'm aware of things like the drunken money thesis - a nose for alcohol leads some of mans ancestors to the ripest fruit - they live.

I'm aware about theories that give evolutionary credence to creativity and euphoria and problem solving and the like.

I'm aware of suggestions that for many centuries to drink alcohol was actually more healthy than to drink the water - cholera typhoid etc

In the end, they're just theories.
In the end - here on a recovery board - so what?

I don't really think all theories do us - we the people reading this - good service.

I read a theory recently that binge drinking may be a kind of behavourial memory back to the days when wine could, and did, go bad quickly.

'Oh, it's entrenched then. Damn....'

Not the best message to have on a recovery site.

See where I'm going with this?

This is real life, real people - it's not grad school where the air can tend get a little...rareified.
(and yes I've been there)

D

Last edited by Dee74; 04-01-2009 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 04-01-2009, 01:49 AM
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I proposed an explanation for genetically inherited addiction.
No-you proposed there was an advantage to it.

I do believe there is a genetic element to alcoholism.It's certainly in my family.

I've yet to see it as a good thing, in my life, my family's life or in the lives of anyone here at SR.That's all I'm saying.

I have no desire to argue.At all.

Jules.
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Old 04-01-2009, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Jules62 View Post
No-you proposed there was an advantage to it.

I have no desire to argue.At all.

Jules.
Cool. But just to clear up, I did not propose that there is an advantage to addiction. I proposed it was the genetically unfavorable outcome. It's the weak gene. I said there's a social advantage to drinking, which could have a correlation to a biologic advantage in having a group. That does not mean addiction is favorable, and I have no idea how you got from what I said to that.

But... whatever. Time to go to work.
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Old 04-01-2009, 05:57 AM
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:28 AM
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I'm a fairly liberal person who will not choose a party group.
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:29 AM
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Geez...I fell asleep and missed all of this.
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:40 AM
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Dee,

"...a theory that binge drinking may be a behavioural memory back to the days when wine could and did go bad quickly."

My bottle of wine seemed to have a one hour window. I wasn't a binge drinker, I was a social drinker, who socialized all day... every day.
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:42 AM
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Lol
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:02 AM
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"We have heard all the time that addiction is genetic; I thought the medical community accepted that by and large. Are you refuting that?"

I am gneiss.

To the best of my knowledge there has been one study only and just recently, that examined the possibility of alcoholism being genetic. While they did isolate a gene, they also found that many other factors played just as large a role in one becoming alcoholic than just the gene being present.

Part of the study looked at twins. In this particular study, the results were that often only one of the pair were alcoholic. Further, it was concluded that because this is the only study so far, the results are inconclusive. As one Dr. pointed out, "show me 6 studies consecutively that show individuals who have the gene, are alcoholic in the same family and then I'll believe it"

My sense is....if you drink too much and it is railroading your life, you have to stop whether you think it's gentic, spiritual, learned or otherwise.
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:49 AM
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I am not an expert (in anything lol) but as far as I am aware recent studies by molecular biologists show that genes don't work that way, there are in fact many arguements as to what actually constitues a gene.

It seems a bit simplistic to suggest that there is a gene for alcoholism in the same way it is simplistic to suggest there is a gene for overeating or gambling.

There may be, like I say I am certainly not any kind of expert.

I do know that your genetic makeup controls your biological reactivity to various chemicals so it seems sensible that alcoholism could be in some way passed from generation to generation, not only favourable traits get passed on.

However I also feel you cannot study alcoholism with using anthropological analysis as culture and society surely play a large part in our behaviour.

Sorry about waffling on to make the point that spirituality also plays no part in my addiction or recovery simply because it plays no part in my life.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:52 AM
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I think Europeans have been interbreeding with each other for such a long time there shouldnt be significant genetic differences in how they process alcohol. LOL
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Eroica View Post
I think Europeans have been interbreeding with each other for such a long time there shouldnt be significant genetic differences in how they process alcohol. LOL


Maybe that explains my mental health problems.
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:36 AM
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I was always told that akaholics have an "allergy".

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Old 04-01-2009, 11:41 AM
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Has anyone ever heard of anyone who was allergic to strawberries. lol
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Old 04-01-2009, 01:37 PM
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Wow, this thread got all intellectual And I love it.

I had a Dr. in SF who told me there must be a gene. My psychiatrist here told me it must be genetics. I err on the side of professionals and those on the frontline of things.

I've had a vested interest in all of this for a very long time, especially with Scandinavian roots and knowing that the incidence of alcoholism is very high in those countries.

If I can share this, mods, there is a very interesting book out there called "Seven Weeks to Sobriety." There is a test in there which outlines four different kinds of alcoholics. Well, I checked off every question in the subtype "EFA deficient." In my mind, we need more of this, not less of this. There are people DYING every day due to not having enough science behind this whole thing.

As we all know, science IS advancing with respect to treating depression. Heck, I take a mood stabilizer which they also give to people with Epilepsy. I don't mind sharing, and maybe I have before, but at 400 mgs of this drug I forgot, yes forgot!, I had a bottle of wine in my house for a whole month! This is why I post in this fora, because I don't buy into the whole concept that my addiction is due to spiritual defects.
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Old 04-01-2009, 02:08 PM
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I really appreciate the reasoned debate. I was just tossing stuff out last night and I think someone thought I said the exact opposite of what I actually did say. It was kinda weird. Anyway... I felt like the thread got hijacked, but then... Katie started it :P
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