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I will only post in the secular forum, I will only post in the secular forum, etc.

Old 03-28-2009, 01:22 AM
  # 81 (permalink)  
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[QUOTE=LosingmyMisery;2168563].

you don't know all of the benefits you are missing out on by not comforming. However, QUOTE]

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Old 03-28-2009, 01:25 AM
  # 82 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery View Post
Alcoholics drink over anger.


Um...not me. I drank over anxiety and depression, not anger. Self-medication.
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Old 03-28-2009, 01:31 AM
  # 83 (permalink)  
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Wow! The guys who wrote our constitution were some real non-conformists.
Somebody should have told those poor ignorant bastids.

Sorry.

That got me too!
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Old 03-28-2009, 08:58 AM
  # 84 (permalink)  
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I drank because I really had fun drinking and hanging out at bars. I guess everyone drank or drinks for different reasons.
When my wife drank to the point of getting buzzed, it was because I liked to have fun and hang out at bars while she stayed home.
Now I drink coffee and hang out at SR.
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:34 AM
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I will only post in the secular forum, I will only post in the secular forum, etc.
Word.
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:59 PM
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BB P. xxi (4th ed)

"Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, we surely have no monopoly".

Best of luck to all who find recovery in any program. I'm in AA, and am happy to have a program that places it's principles before all else. One that is open to every and any conceivable idea of "God". And that even being an atheist is not an impediment to recovery (How It Works tells us that the only people who can not, or will not, recover are those incapable of being honest with themselves. Don't forget as we understood him was suggested by a self confessed atheist, yet was staying sober. He went on to form the first groups in Philadelphia.
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Old 03-31-2009, 09:10 PM
  # 87 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by irishmalcolm View Post
"Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, we surely have no monopoly".

Best of luck to all who find recovery in any program. I'm in AA, and am happy to have a program that places it's principles before all else. One that is open to every and any conceivable idea of "God". And that even being an atheist is not an impediment to recovery (How It Works tells us that the only people who can not, or will not, recover are those incapable of being honest with themselves. Don't forget as we understood him was suggested by a self confessed atheist, yet was staying sober. He went on to form the first groups in Philadelphia.
Hmm, I like to research things. Would you happen to have this link handy? I do enjoy reading about the origins of AA. Thanks!
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:12 AM
  # 88 (permalink)  
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Hi Katie

Hi Katie09,
You can listen to Jimmy "the atheist" talking on The AA Primary Purpose Website (I can't post a link yet, but google will bring it up). It is also written about in the book "AA Comes Of Age". I know he moved to philidelphia because in 1942 because he sponsored a man called Connor F, who founded the first AA meetings in Ireland and who sponsored my my Sponsor (who is sober 38 years, Conor had over 40 years sobriety when he died.) Bill W writes about Conor on in "AA comes of Age".

As for the Orange papers, there is much good info on there but the fact is, he constantly refers to the "12 steps that summarize the program" (BB. P.xxii) and has nothing to say about the program which is laid out in the BB up to p 164.
His attack on other peoples spiritual beliefs are very childish. There is no instruction in the Big Book that a door knob or toilet can be your higher power (although in the belief systems commonly called Animism that is technically possible) is the basis of much ridicule. His contention that AA is a cult, akin to Scientology, holds no water in my opinion. AA costs me nothing, no one (not even my sponsor) tells me what to do. His lack of knowledge of the 12 Traditions and the 12 Concepts leave a gapping hole. His use of the book "The 12 Steps and 12 Traditions" is taken out of the context explained clearly in the introduction, that it is an explicit, individual opinion (of Bill Wilson) and only represents Bills view (Dr. Bob did not want the book published). There is a lot in his site that sows much confusion. Then there is much that is just opinion presented as fact, when he leaves out a great deal of information, not published by AA, which seems sadly amiss from his bookshelf. But there is some important information regarding the failings of the service structure, but then they are not AA, just some people who chose to ignore the 12 Concepts. I wouldn't mind anyone I sponsor delving deep into what his site has to offer, because I know from personal experience he does not publish any letters that will confront or dispel his entrenched views. Just letters from angry, or misguided members who feel threatened by his site.

The Lifering book, which I received from their man in Europe (who lives in Cork) is a very good resource for those seeking an alternative to AA. I have never been to a lifering meeting (there are none here) but I did try their chat room meetings, which tend towards attacking AA a lot. I still say if it works for you, then it works for you. There has always been societies dedicated to helping the suffering alcoholics. Before AA their was The Washingtonians, The Emmanual Society, The Jacoby Club, The Matt Talbot Wagon Wheel society and the Salvation Army and Oxfords Groups who had it as part of their mission. And their are now alternatives available who are readily accesible even for a guy living in the irish countryside.

Love and Peace to all
Malcolm
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:35 AM
  # 89 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by irishmalcolm View Post


As for the Orange papers, there is much good info on there but the fact is, he constantly refers to the "12 steps that summarize the program" (BB. P.xxii) and has nothing to say about the program which is laid out in the BB up to p 164.



Love and Peace to all
Malcolm
Did you read the entire "orange papers"?
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:50 AM
  # 90 (permalink)  
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I have seen the site I didn't say however that my knowledge of and opinion of aa came from it.

Any opinions I have of aa come from being an active member in the past (oh the shame lol ) and the experiences that came from that.

I have both secular and non secular friends on this site and while I always listen to their experiences with interest and appreciation I can really only be true to what I believe to be beneficial to me.
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Old 04-01-2009, 01:16 PM
  # 91 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by irishmalcolm View Post
Hi Katie09,
You can listen to Jimmy "the atheist" talking on The AA Primary Purpose Website (I can't post a link yet, but google will bring it up). It is also written about in the book "AA Comes Of Age". I know he moved to philidelphia because in 1942 because he sponsored a man called Connor F, who founded the first AA meetings in Ireland and who sponsored my my Sponsor (who is sober 38 years, Conor had over 40 years sobriety when he died.) Bill W writes about Conor on in "AA comes of Age".

As for the Orange papers, there is much good info on there but the fact is, he constantly refers to the "12 steps that summarize the program" (BB. P.xxii) and has nothing to say about the program which is laid out in the BB up to p 164.
His attack on other peoples spiritual beliefs are very childish. There is no instruction in the Big Book that a door knob or toilet can be your higher power (although in the belief systems commonly called Animism that is technically possible) is the basis of much ridicule. His contention that AA is a cult, akin to Scientology, holds no water in my opinion. AA costs me nothing, no one (not even my sponsor) tells me what to do. His lack of knowledge of the 12 Traditions and the 12 Concepts leave a gapping hole. His use of the book "The 12 Steps and 12 Traditions" is taken out of the context explained clearly in the introduction, that it is an explicit, individual opinion (of Bill Wilson) and only represents Bills view (Dr. Bob did not want the book published). There is a lot in his site that sows much confusion. Then there is much that is just opinion presented as fact, when he leaves out a great deal of information, not published by AA, which seems sadly amiss from his bookshelf. But there is some important information regarding the failings of the service structure, but then they are not AA, just some people who chose to ignore the 12 Concepts. I wouldn't mind anyone I sponsor delving deep into what his site has to offer, because I know from personal experience he does not publish any letters that will confront or dispel his entrenched views. Just letters from angry, or misguided members who feel threatened by his site.

The Lifering book, which I received from their man in Europe (who lives in Cork) is a very good resource for those seeking an alternative to AA. I have never been to a lifering meeting (there are none here) but I did try their chat room meetings, which tend towards attacking AA a lot. I still say if it works for you, then it works for you. There has always been societies dedicated to helping the suffering alcoholics. Before AA their was The Washingtonians, The Emmanual Society, The Jacoby Club, The Matt Talbot Wagon Wheel society and the Salvation Army and Oxfords Groups who had it as part of their mission. And their are now alternatives available who are readily accesible even for a guy living in the irish countryside.

Love and Peace to all
Malcolm
Thank you so much, Malcolm, for taking the time to write your post to me.

I envy you in that I do believe you haven't been tarnished by the machine that AA has become. I have never met more wonderful people in my life than in AA, but AA has become a machine. Perhaps this is the natural evolution of any movement. I don't know.

There is much value in the Big Book. I've quizzed a friend of mine in the U.S. on the rules and regulations. To the best of his knowledge (and he started in 1964) there was never a requirement for labels or sponsors. He has told me not to forget the wisdom of the Big Book. Still, all of it is so intertwined in my mind I can't get past things.

And thank you for your open mindedness about the Orange Papers. I do think that A. Orange is doing his best in his own way to help the recovery movement at large. Oh, and btw, love LifeRing here, although there are no meetings in my town. I'm almost tempted to move back to the area from whence they came.

From across the big pond,

Katie
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:10 PM
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Hey Irish Malcolm,

I spent 2 years and 7 months in AA up until a year ago and remain sober. I have also read the Orange site from beginning to end and continue to as he begins to publish more letters.

I am all for anyone who any chooses any program that works well for them including AA as I believe that AA provides much more to many people than the indoctrination of the 12 steps. I think belonging to a group, making friends, feeling valued through doing service work, no longer being isolated can go a long way in keeping some sober. While I was in the program, I saw many people going through the motions because gaining the benefits above is what was keeping them sober more than anything else. Like AA toutes, "Fake it till you make it."

As far as the Orange papers site goes, I disagree with you when you say that orange "does not publish any letters that confront or dispel his entrenched views", quite to the contrary. Many of the letters are from those who are angry and threatened by his site and confront him on much of what the BB says and the 12 and 12. He always goes through each line of each letter and provides arguments based on countless hours of research that he has spent years engaging. I might also add that he is not relaying "his opinions presenting them as fact". I see that being done by the angry threatened writers. Their views seem to be about "It's in the B.B therefore it's right" It is NOT to be questioned as though it is sacred.

Once again, I think everyone should participate in whatever program works for them if they choose to participate in a program.
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:13 PM
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I'd like to know why my posts regarding the Orange Papers have "gone missing" I'd appreciate a PM from a moderator of this forum regarding this decision. I was not baiting anyone nor was I violating SR Policy. If I can't post an alternative viewpoint to 12 step recovery on this forum, then what's the point. I question everything, just because I am an AA guy doesn't mean for a second I follow the herd mentality. honestly i do not want what the majority in AA have. The majority in AA drink again.
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:28 PM
  # 94 (permalink)  
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Rob, my post is gone as well. I PM'd Alera, and am awaiting reply. You might try sending her a message.
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:33 PM
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I just noticed... I think Rob's post and my post both linked to the Orange Papers website. The other comments regarding the Orange Papers do not contain links. So... guessing the link is the problem? I know you aren't supposed to advertise, but people post links to outside info all the time. I don't quite see what's up.
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:58 PM
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Here is the rule that applies to the Orange Papers link.

2. Outside Agendas: No posts of an overtly political or religious nature OR posts promoting advocacy of particular personal, medical, legal, religious, political, or non-profit causes. The forums are intended for offering mutual personal support related to recovery from addiction or recovery for family and friends. This is our primary purpose. Debating controversial subjects should be taken elsewhere. Limited references are allowed, but the forums should not be used to convert others. Do not post content or links to and from sites that flame someone's person, religious beliefs, race, national background, sexual orientation, or recovery program/method. It is inappropriate to promote the use of alcohol or drugs on our addiction recovery forums.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:02 PM
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I have read all of his site, yes. I think the fundamental flaw is that A.A. is regarded in terms of the legacy of Unity (the Fellowship) rather than the other two legacies of Recovery (up to Page 164 in the Big Book) and Service (the 5th tradition, not to be confused with service within the fellowship). Nowhere does he state that A.A. has 4 textbooks (Alcoholics Anonymous, 12x12, AA Comes of Age and As Bill Sees It (44 Questions p.30)) thus considering the society purely in the narrow terms terms of the fellowship, which came after the book (p.xvii BB) and expecting that the Group become the prime focus of recovery from alcoholism in AA. But nowhere in the literature was that ever considered the means of recovery.
Nor does he discuss the 12 Concepts for World Service in any depth. A serious oversight I think because their lack of diligence has allowed AA to become affiliated with the treatment centre industry. In turn, much of what we hear in the fellowship is the ideas and treatments of an outside enterprise.
I find his contention that AA is a cult, headed by a charismatic leader hilarious. The vast majority of the membership will never read AA Comes of Age, The 12 concepts for world service or the 12x12. Most do not work the program of recovery as laid out in the text book "Alcoholics Anonymous". For a taste of what AA was like 74 years ago when it started, Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers has some fascinating info. For instance you were not allowed into their meetings until you did their program (which can be found on p.263 for at least 3 months during which you had to do it). A sponsor literally paid for mandatory hospitalization for a man he wanted to help (hence the term sponsor). There is a very good non-AA book on it's history called "Not God" which is a hoot.
AA suits me because I place equal importance on all 3 legacies. I am not meeting dependant, prefer to work one-on-one with my sponsor or someone I'm sponsoring and attend literature based meetings, rather than the majority open-discussion meetings. The fellowship of AA is not, nor was it ever meant to be, a self-help therapy group. It is a set of spiritual principles laid out in a book designed for one who has experience in Recovery to transmit that message to another person to help them find a Power (of their own understanding and choice) to remove the obsession to drink alcohol. That works for those who take the necessary actions. It is unfortunate that that simple formula has been so taken out of all context that it is open season on A.A., not from any other source that I can discern other than former disgruntled members.
I am responsible for my own recovery, and for what I have done in active addiction and continue to do in sobriety. It is my belief that anything is better than someone dying from an illness that has taken the lives of many people I knew and loved. If you find recovery in AA, Lifering, Religion, Therapy or where ever then it should be supported. I'm a member of A.A. and love it. I feel no need to attack other methods because I believe they will stand or fall on their own merits, time will tell. I have my own experience with the Orange papers not addressing letters and know for myself the truth from the false on his site. It is not anywhere nearly as accurate as most would suspect, but then it fulfills a purpose by appearing to validate genuine concerns whilst remaining no more than a conspiracy theorists blog. Cherry-picking, misrepresenting and opining it's way, all the time remaining secretive, unaccountable and unchecked by any other reliable input.

Love and Peace
Malcolm
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
Here is the rule that applies to the Orange Papers link.

2. Outside Agendas: No posts of an overtly political or religious nature OR posts promoting advocacy of particular personal, medical, legal, religious, political, or non-profit causes. The forums are intended for offering mutual personal support related to recovery from addiction or recovery for family and friends. This is our primary purpose. Debating controversial subjects should be taken elsewhere. Limited references are allowed, but the forums should not be used to convert others. Do not post content or links to and from sites that flame someone's person, religious beliefs, race, national background, sexual orientation, or recovery program/method. It is inappropriate to promote the use of alcohol or drugs on our addiction recovery forums.
Thank you, Morning Glory. However, I'm not sure I see the connection? Not being difficult, I just don't see what part of this rule applies to the Orange Papers. We have a lot of posts regarding AA, both positive and negative; this is just one more, as I see it. And I don't understand how my comment-- that I had read the information on the link and thought it was interesting-- would be taken as breaking the rules. Other people posted comments about the Orange Papers that actually took a stance for or against them-- "interesting" is fairly neutral, by comparison. Unless it was the actual link itself from when I quoted Rob.

If this would be better off-thread, feel free to PM me. Thanks again.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:31 PM
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Here are some examples from the Orange Papers site that make the link inappropriate for our site and would be considered flaming a recovery method or religious belief.

Cult religion is not a good cure for alcoholism, and A.A. most assuredly is a cult religion.

Part of surrendering to the cult is giving up on having a personal life or personal goals.

It just seems like there are always a few cult members around who giggle a lot, and proclaim that it's all so wonderful. "Praise the Lord! Sing hallelujah! Glory be! Thank you Jesus! It's a Miracle!" (or something similar) is their standard response to everything. It's like a giggly hysteria or mania. Those people have shut down their logical thinking minds for the duration, in trade for group acceptance and a world of spiritual make-believe.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:43 PM
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Thanks for your reply, MG. I can see your point there. There have been things on the forums I found much more offensive, but I considered them the opinion of the poster and didn't worry about them. Similarly, I think it's fair to say what the Orange Papers say can be taken with a grain of salt and I disagree with the links being removed. However, I will let the matter rest. Thank you again for your replies and patience in answering me.
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