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So now the therapist says I am to go to five AA meetings a week?

Old 03-14-2009, 07:50 AM
  # 81 (permalink)  
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There's nothing to do in Phoenix, the largest state capitol by population in the U.S??
Sounds like a lot of people doing a whole lot of nothing then.

Is there any end to your excuses Katie...
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Old 03-14-2009, 08:22 AM
  # 82 (permalink)  
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No matter how you dress it up, stopping drinking/starting to live life clean is hard. It will be hard no matter what. With pets, with a computer, with AA, without AA. With or without rehab of any flavor. Son Of a B!tch, Everything's Real. BUT IT'S WORTH IT. IT GETS BETTER. GET ON WITH IT!
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Old 03-14-2009, 09:58 AM
  # 83 (permalink)  
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Um, going on 6 years here, mang. And no religion saved my @ss. I saved my own @ss.
Danged Easter Bunny could care less if I got high.

Some people ain't programmed for the religious 12 steps. I sure wasn't. Why should this gal waste thousands of dollars on the Easter Bunny when she don't even believe in the Easter Bunny? That wouldn't be rational and whatnot.

and I got 20-20 vision in all three eyes.

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Old 03-14-2009, 10:38 AM
  # 84 (permalink)  
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Ananda,

Some people prefer to enable others thereby avoiding to sincerely help the suffering alcoholic. There is nothing wrong with that kind of support, but when does it become just words?

Actually, it's NOT okay to get nasty but breaking through the denial with a sledgehammer as you put it, may be what others ARE trying to do and for what it is worth. I think it's a strong accusation and unfair to suggest that "nasty" comments are dressed up under the auspicious of helping another suffering alcoholic/addict. Truth is never nasty, the actions of the person may be nasty.

I think ***** footing around an issue infinitely is much more harmful in the long run to anyone and presuming that another person feels exactly the way you do/did when posts weren't candy coated is also unproductive

I think there comes a time when we can't hide from the truth and it's time for real action and maybe it's that time.
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Old 03-14-2009, 10:47 AM
  # 85 (permalink)  
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count me in, i've had 3 lessons if it all goes **** up i'll take over...

Stop dissing the easter bunny, he's round here watching telly with me and he's starting to get pissed off!!!

Last edited by yeahgr8; 03-14-2009 at 10:59 AM. Reason: easter bunny
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Old 03-14-2009, 10:49 AM
  # 86 (permalink)  
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I am jumping ahead w/o reading the rest of the thread so sorry if someone already addressed this. Anyhow, I called and it is $1250 (semi-private) a day and they do center the program more around your needs. It sounds a lot like they use Rogerian Therapy which is a more client-centered approach to recovery. It's the form of Psychology I studied under when getting my Psych Degree. In a nut shell you find your own best way and are not influenced to take a certain direction by your treatment team but are guided to find your own best path.

I am sorry that the rehab facility isn't working out. Honestly, I would be pretty upset if I shelled out all of that money and found out I was given the bait and switch. That's really isn't "cool" at all. I know you haven't had a long seperation from your alcohol abuse but are you feeling any better or is the treatment facility problems just making it worse?

Also from their website:

The typical day consists of morning check in group, Education sessions, Group Therapy, Individual Therapy, Yoga, Tai Chi or Chi Gung , Therapeutic Massage or Acupuncture, Sober Fun Activities, a meeting at the gym with the personal trainer, an outside self help support group meeting, and other therapeutic activities.

There are also weekly "Creative Therapy Activities" such as a Sweat Lodge Ceremony, an intensive session of Psycho-Drama, Biofeedback, creative art therapy, or a day of Equine-Assisted Therapy with nationally renowned therapist Wyatt Webb.

In the evenings clients will attend self-help support group meetings, such as Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, SMART Recovery, or LifeRing.

I grew up in Phoenix and my sister is a recovering addict. She is hard-wired to the absolute gills about AA though even though she isn't an alcoholic but a meth/heroin user. You can't even talk to her about other treatment programs without her having a meltdown.

During the Summer everyone definitely stays inside with the heat but there is a ton of great things to do if you want some suggestions for the area to help you get focused on more positive activities.

Last edited by Sara9009; 03-14-2009 at 11:13 AM. Reason: Added
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:14 AM
  # 87 (permalink)  
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It must be really frustrating for people in US a great country in many respects (like leading the world with cancer treatment) that it's so dominated by 12 step treatment.
Think if I lived in the US I would feel so isolated and confused my alcoholism would potentially be exasperated.
The masses of inpatient 12 step treatment facilities with its very limited effectiveness is a weakness of capitalism.
Did read somewhere about naltrexone treatment (proven effective treatment for alcoholism although by know means a magic bullet for everybody suffering alcoholism unlike AA claims to be lol).
The person who devised the treatment presented a lecture to 1 rehab and their response, which sums it up in my opinion, well yeah it works but what about our jobs. Ashame about your jobs I agree but what about alcoholics lives eh.
I think deep down addicts have less human rights as we are all still perceived as bad people. Which the big book reinforces.
I'm a good person with an addiction problem and not a self centred egotistical psychopath like the big book likes to say (Bill W might have been but I'm certainly not).
I will admit I think its admirable that some people in AA admit they have same traits as mentioned above and try to work on them but not are alcoholics are the same and putting them in the same pigeon hole is dangerous in my opinion.
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:15 AM
  # 88 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
I know I need to go and I am going to go, but I am having some misgivings about the place I picked. Their shrink is a big proponent of 12 step programs, and I am not (I have told this place I am anti-AA and they are aware of this). I had to be up front with them to establish appropriate expectations. They say they are not 12 step necessarily yet have four AA meetings a week on the schedule. They say I can do other groups if I don't want to do those groups, yet the schedule doesn't say that. They told me they aren't going to throw me in a room with a pot of coffee, 30 people and a big book, but I have this nagging feeling about the whole thing. The people with whom I've consulted have told me I have to deal with a bit of AA, but this other program I found that looked good to me (no AA and the guy was very nice on the phone and did not diss the place where I am going, while the place I am going to did diss this guy's place and I don't like that) and I'm wondering if I am doing the right thing. If I get there and it turns out to be one very expensive AA meeting, I am NOT going to be a very happy camper. I've been to those places and I may as well save my money.

At any rate, I'd welcome input from anyone who cares to share. I have a lot to accomplish today if I am to leave tomorrow. Am I making the right choice even if AA is involved? This place says I am but I think they'd all say that. I just don't know. Thanks.
I apologize if I misinterpreted this post, but this came from a thread titled "Second guessing my choice of rehab facility". I thought matters were clearly defined in your words above, Katie. Now, you claim knowing nothing about it including 12 step recovery. I find that confusing if not denial. You had a choice between the two and the place that included 12 step was chosen. I guess only you know why it was chosen and as to why you act surprised and deceived.

Now I would like to talk about enabling. Enabling will never help anyone. It will only help keep someone in their illness. It may even help lead them straight to their grave. Others can perceive it as nasty, I perceive it as quite the opposite. Sometimes it takes some recovery time to be able to interpret between enabling and real life experience. I know all about deceit and denial. The two combined with alcoholism are deadly. Not being able to recognize things for what they truly are, I chalk up to inexperience or ignorance.

Now, I know that people tend to not like the word ignorance. I know I didn't until I grew to understand the meaning of it. It isn't meant to be insulting. It simply means not knowing any better or having the experience to being informed, being unaware. You can't know what you don't know. There comes a time when we have to quit blaming everyone else, or in the case, every treatment center that you've encountered as being at fault and take a good look to see how you have contributed or haven't. There in may lie the problem or the solution. It is truly up to you, Katie. You hold the key. You always have, but it appears you keep sabotaging your efforts, which is very common. Try to break away from that.

My intentions are to help only, not hound or give you a hard time. As always, I wish you nothing but the best and success. At the rate you are going, I recognize the behavior of alcoholism that will keep you in your disease. Yes, my wish is to break through the denial and get you into a place of a new way of thinking. That is the only way you can get past this. History will continue to repeat itself if you keep making the same efforts. Time to break out of your comfort zone and try, try, again. However, you have to find some willingness. Problems seemed to arise the moment you arrived to treatment. Tolerance, patience and an open mind work wonders in situations where you feel uncomfortable in your environment. Good luck.
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:16 AM
  # 89 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sara9009 View Post
I am jumping ahead w/o reading the rest of the thread so sorry if someone already addressed this. Anyhow, I called and it is $1250 (semi-private) a day and they do center the program more around your needs. It sounds a lot like they use Rogerian Therapy which is a more client-centered approach to recovery. It's the form of Psychology I studied under when getting my Psych Degree. In a nut shell you find your own best way and are not influenced to take a certain direction by your treatment team but are guided to find your own best path.

I am sorry that the rehab facility isn't working out. Honestly, I would be pretty upset if I shelled out all of that money and found out I was given the bait and switch. That's really isn't "cool" at all. I know you haven't had a long seperation from your alcohol abuse but are you feeling any better or is the treatment facility problems just making it worse?

Also from their website:

The typical day consists of morning check in group, Education sessions, Group Therapy, Individual Therapy, Yoga, Tai Chi or Chi Gung , Therapeutic Massage or Acupuncture, Sober Fun Activities, a meeting at the gym with the personal trainer, an outside self help support group meeting, and other therapeutic activities.

There are also weekly "Creative Therapy Activities" such as a Sweat Lodge Ceremony, an intensive session of Psycho-Drama, Biofeedback, creative art therapy, or a day of Equine-Assisted Therapy with nationally renowned therapist Wyatt Webb.

In the evenings clients will attend self-help support group meetings, such as Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, SMART Recovery, or LifeRing.

I grew up in Phoenix and my sister is a recovering addict. She is hard-wired to the absolute gills about AA though even though she isn't an alcoholic but a meth/heroin user. You can't even talk to her about other treatment programs without her having a meltdown.

During the Summer everyone definitely stays inside with the heat but there is a ton of great things to do if you want some suggestions for the area.
OMDK, $1250 a day, the treatment center I went to was $2100 for 3 weeks! That was in 2001, I'm sure it's a bit more now, but still... For a low budget, state funded treatment center, I though they did a pretty good job. Their program is based on Choice Theory.
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:22 AM
  # 90 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
Thanks for the link. Looks pretty good. The only thing that makes me quite nervous is that they have 12 step meetings onsite. I don't want anything to do with the 12 steps, and especially after this experience.

There was another rehab but I forget what it's called in Malibu. The psychiatrist is an atheist and they are not 12 step at all.
Passages?

Originally Posted by sfgirl View Post
I do fully believe that there is a hustle that goes on with rehabs and it absolutely disgusts me. I read part of that book (the first chapter that you can download for free) Alcoholism and the Addiction Cure which made me want to puke since it was one long advertisement for their treatment center.
That is Passages. The book is about their rehab center so it makes sense. The middle four excerpts do not deal with the rehab though, and with their belief system.

I don't know much about them except its the current place for movie stars to go to get clean and they are anti-AA.

The thing about Passages and all of those Malibu centers is that there have been some big questions raised. In fact, there was a large article in the LA Times about them and all the Malibu rehabs.
The trouble with rehab, Malibu-style - Lawsuits and violations reveal problems in a luxury cottage industry for the addicted. - Los Angeles Times
Cynthia Moreno Tuohy, executive director of NAADAC, the Assn. for Addiction Professionals, said such no-money-back rules are an exception and "a shame."
Among the other Malibu rehab centers with no-refund policies are Renaissance, whose website features a testimonial by actor Daniel Baldwin, and Passages, which counts fashion designer Marc Jacobs among its graduates.

"If you leave, your money stays," said Passages co-founder Chris Prentiss, who added that the center immediately resells the vacated bed -- the monthly cost is $67,550 -- and that returning patients must wait for the next opening. Their payment stays on account, he said.

In the last six years, Prentiss said, only seven patients have departed early and failed to complete treatment later.

In 2005, the state cited Passages for exceeding its patient capacity. The center complied with a corrective order, Fisher said.
Prentiss says his center eliminates dependencies by treating their underlying causes -- depression and anxiety, for example -- through intensive one-on-one therapy. Passages also disdains Alcoholics Anonymous' 12-step program, which Promises and other Malibu centers have adopted or adapted.
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:40 AM
  # 91 (permalink)  
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:47 AM
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Katie, I hope you are having a good trip home. Hope to hear from ya soon.

Sorry, Alera.
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:49 AM
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I know some really stupid people who have been sober for a long time. The reason they got sober, simply hitting bottom.
There is a very small correlation between sobriety time and being an expert in alcoholism IMO.
Admittedly being around people with lots of sober time is healthy as they are less likely to drink and hence encourage you to drink. Which is what is good about my local AA meetings.
And as AA insinuates if you are always overly angry with the world and are unable to accept things it can be unhealthy and needs to be addressed by learning new coping behaviours. Message taken on board by me but I don't need a god to realise this reality as I am unable to believe in god in bill ws understanding as much as I am unable to believe in mickey mouse.
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:52 AM
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Sorry Alera.
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Sara9009 View Post
Sorry Alera.
I am sorry too. I gotta work harder on my tolerance.
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Old 03-14-2009, 12:46 PM
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With all do respect, kurtrambis, being sober doesn't make me an expert in alcoholism. What makes me an expert in alcoholism is all of the drinking I did. My sobriety has given me some experience and some coping skills. It is really quite simple. I can recognize denial, deceit and self-sabotage a mile away. However, I was unable to see it in myself when it was most rampant. However, others easily could. I think when we are in our darkest hour we are unaware of the dangers of where we are heading. I needed others to point that out to me. We are wearing blinders in active alcoholism. Once the blinders have been removed, the view is clear.

I wish we could put the Easter bunny, Micky Mouse and even God to the side for now. This is about Katie and her finding sobriety. She can believe any way she wishes. It doesn't matter to me. What matters is she finds a way to get and stay sober. If nothing seems to suit her belief system, she may have to make some changes and adjustments.

For some reason, we want to fight recovery. It is easier than forcing ourselves to change. I think fear was a big motivator in moving toward recovery, but at the same time, fear kept me from stepping outside of my comfort zone. I needed some coxing to make the actual move.

I hate to see us get off track on what the main focus is. I hope she can find a program that is non-12 step and she can grasp it and run with it. There will be no God, hopefully, no 12 step distractions and it will be all on her to make it work. No matter what program she chooses, she has a lot of work and soul searching to do, as we all do. After all, alcohol is merely a symptom of why we drink.
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Old 03-14-2009, 01:14 PM
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You tell that Easter Bunny that the head on my chocolate rabbit was broken and that ain't cool. He was stingy with the cadbury aiggs too.
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Old 03-14-2009, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
Thanks for the link. Looks pretty good. The only thing that makes me quite nervous is that they have 12 step meetings onsite. I don't want anything to do with the 12 steps, and especially after this experience.

There was another rehab but I forget what it's called in Malibu. The psychiatrist is an atheist and they are not 12 step at all. Yunno, when I told her about this place she told me this place was a 12 step model. Of course, who to believe, someone who wants me to come to her VERY expensive facility or this facility who at the time told me they had alternative groups to the 12 steps available (I thought that meant like alternative groups onsite). I didn't realize they'd have to scramble to put together some hokey schedule to include things like massage therapy and nutrition and general support groups in the community. Additionally, there was not one SOS, SMART or LifeRing groups in the area, so I don't know how I was to specifically address my addiction.
There is wanting what you want and then figuring out how to work with what you can get. Part of me debated posting a link of another rehab but I do fully believe the hustle can happen. I use to work for private criminal defense attorneys and the amount of sleaze that went into the sale disgusted me so much. Especially when dealing with issues of life and death (rehab/criminal defense) I vehemently do not believe that anyone should be toyed with or sold a bill of goods.

I posted the other link, not as an endorsement but as an example of a rehab that does not push the 12-step model on its clients and serves your needs. It deals with dual-diagnosis issues and offers attendance to LifeRing and other meetings as well as an emphasis on finding your own path which very well does not have to be AA. From their site:

"The Bayside Model recognizes the effectiveness of 12 Step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous, but we do not teach the 12 Steps as part of the treatment protocol. Residents are able to do that 12 Step work at meetings or with a sponsor, and we prefer not to charge for something that is so readily available for free. Even though we have several on-site 12 Step meetings per week, The Bayside Model recognizes that the 12 Step programs don't work for everyone. Some clients are interested in exploring alternatives to AA, so we make the literature available and take those clients to other meetings like LifeRing and SMART Recovery. Our intention is that clients develop a sober support system that represents a philosophy and structure that will work for them for the long term."

Now, Katie, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You would like to follow your own path and that is swell but there are others who would like to follow the AA path. To demand a rehab with no 12-step meetings at all, while I am sure they do exist, seems silly at this point. AA meetings on site that are not compulsory or even encouraged should not deter you too much from a rehab. Other people would like to follow their own path as well and that as you know might be different than your own.

The thing is you can rationalize everything to high heaven. You have come here and given reason, after reason for everything. I used to rationalize all my controlled drinking strategies, why I did want one at the end of one night, why I would not at the end of another, why one system would work and the other wouldn't but at the end of it all I was just little running circles in my mind for nothing. I could make an argument for anything. You have to stop your mind from coming up with all these arguments and just give up. Alcohol is beating you up. You can't make the world fit into what you want it to do. You have to take it as it is. Priority number one— get sober.

Also I had major issues with 12-step in the beginning. I ranted to my therapist about it in month one. She looked at me and took a more tolerant attitude and now about 5 months later (yes, SailorJohn, I apologize that my sobriety time may not allow me to have enough wisdom to speak) I find myself fascinated by many aspects of AA and still turned off by others. Point is— I am way more open minded. I am not saying that will happen to you or should happen to you, but I found that rigidity and rigid thinking was a condition that started to fall away the more I got sober. And for that I am thankful.
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Old 03-14-2009, 01:49 PM
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thx SF.... my head isn't on real good today and your post sorta centered me

:ghug3
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Old 03-14-2009, 09:11 PM
  # 100 (permalink)  
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Ops , gave thanks to gerryP...did not intend to do that.

Sounds like a 'what is helping another and what is hindering another' in recovery clash of methods...I for one find compassion to work very well.
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