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People with higher religiousity and lower psychopathology do better in AA

Old 02-19-2009, 03:38 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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The word 'alcoholism' may have become synonymous with AA but it was around in the 19th century.

Each to their own - I'm not bothered by words - they can only hold power over me if I let them IMO. The real issue here surely is acknowledging the problem and acting on it.

I have to live with certain conditions - medical, emotional and behavioural - but none of them need define who I am. Only I do that.

D
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Old 02-19-2009, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
Thank you for mentioning what I bolded and the rest. I don't like the word alcoholism. I can live with the word alcohol-dependent, as it's currently defined in the DSM-IV. This is yet another issue I have with AA - the label. It would be akin to quitting smoking (yet another addiction) and continuing to define oneself as a smoker. Makes no sense. Another point of contention I have (and I feel comfortable saying this in the secular forum) is that I really have an issue with the notion that this is a disease. Smoking is a real addiction, yet no one ever says I have the disease of smoking. No, both drinking in excess and smoking can lead to disease, but both are addictions to me. I guess semantics matter to me.
I'm on the same page with ya there, Katie.
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Old 02-19-2009, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
The word 'alcoholism' may have become synonymous with AA but it was around in the 19th century.

Each to their own - I'm not bothered by words - they can only hold power over me if I let them IMO. The real issue here surely is acknowledging the problem and acting on it.

I have to live with certain conditions - medical, emotional and behavioural - but none of them need define who I am. Only I do that.

D
Right, antiquated. And what is the value of a label? People were both revered and scorned thoughout history for being depressed, so what does that tell you? Times change.

What is wrong with adopting a 2009 view of things?
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Old 02-19-2009, 05:48 PM
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I am in two minds about the semantics of alcoholism, and secularity too.

I've got to admit that sometimes I find nitpicking over simple labels petty and tiresome, I also sometimes get incredibly annoyed at the inconsiderate use of language.

I spend a lot of time when Im posting trying to word my thoughts so as not to offend people, sometimes to the point where any sense of what I am trying to get across is lost.

I'm not the most articulate person in the world and having to put an escape clause, such as "this is only my opinion" or "of course this doesn't apply to everyone" in every sentence I type makes me thing its just not worth bothering.

I've been doing a lot of hard thinking lately and I hope I am becoming a bit more accepting of who I am and what I think, this means to me that for my own sanity I need to be able to express myself without fear of coming across as too militant on the atheism front.

I am militant lol and while I might get offended by strongly religous posts I have to cope with it, as far as I am aware no one has ever died from being offended.

Sorry Im rambling now but I've got so much stuff going on in my head at the moment I need to spit a bit of it out.

Slightly off topic I know!
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Old 02-19-2009, 05:59 PM
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And that's ok, as I am still thinking. BTW, there is nothing wrong with thinking. One doesn't have to have an answer to all the drive by Yay Rah Rah posts to figure this out.
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Old 02-21-2009, 05:44 AM
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Stands to reason.
AA knows very very little about psyschopathology.
AA is religious.
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Old 02-21-2009, 06:20 AM
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I totally agree with Katie, how is this a disease? I would not even call it an addicition! i think it is just a bad habit, let's be honest. Personally i haven't done it for over 4 months now and all i did was substitute drinking alcohol with a lovely cup of sweet tea and a choccie biscuit at the times i used to drink! Ok i maybe have put on few pounds but hey, i feel much better.

I spent 20 years worrying about nothing! I'm off to the newcomers and AA section to recommend a biscuit substitute and a brew everytime they feel like taking a drink, i'm amazed no-one has thought of this before.
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Old 02-22-2009, 02:25 PM
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I like this, I don't like that. Labels, disease, addiction. What does it matter? What matters is we are alcoholics, like it, or the word, or not. Spending time arguing and worrying about the semantics takes away from our recovery. The energy wasted on a no where journey puzzles we. Why not put that energy toward finding a solution? Why put another obstacle between you and sobriety? Whether AA puts a label on me or not means nothing to me at this point in my recovery. Comes a time to move past an argument and you may find life becomes easier.

It really makes no sense to me that so many people who are struggling focus so much on these types of issues. Where is it going to get your, really? Isn't the point to get and stay sober? What is really hindering your sobriety? Sometimes the only obstacle between me and my own sobriety is me. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I have seen this discussion so many times, I really don't get it anymore. If someone slaps a label and me and calls me an alcoholic, what should it matter? Should it matter that I'm wearing a label or should the focus be that I'm drunk every day and can not manage my life? Seems pretty clear to me.
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Old 02-22-2009, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery View Post
I like this, I don't like that. Labels, disease, addiction. What does it matter? What matters is we are alcoholics, like it, or the word, or not. Spending time arguing and worrying about the semantics takes away from our recovery. The energy wasted on a no where journey puzzles we. Why not put that energy toward finding a solution? Why put another obstacle between you and sobriety? Whether AA puts a label on me or not means nothing to me at this point in my recovery. Comes a time to move past an argument and you may find life becomes easier.

It really makes no sense to me that so many people who are struggling focus so much on these types of issues. Where is it going to get your, really? Isn't the point to get and stay sober? What is really hindering your sobriety? Sometimes the only obstacle between me and my own sobriety is me. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I have seen this discussion so many times, I really don't get it anymore. If someone slaps a label and me and calls me an alcoholic, what should it matter? Should it matter that I'm wearing a label or should the focus be that I'm drunk every day and can not manage my life? Seems pretty clear to me.
Language is powerful. Semantics matter. BTW, the latest term for alcoholic is alcohol-dependent in the DSM-IV. Even my psychiatrist told me the word alcoholic is pejorative.

For example, if I say I am a fat, stupid person...what will this do to my self-esteem? OTOH, if I say I am a healthy, intelligent person and keep repeating this message to myself...what will this do to my self-esteem?

Which is better?
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Old 02-22-2009, 08:00 PM
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You tell me? I'm confused here. I thought we were discussing alcoholism not being fat or stupid. I've read about the choices you've been making lately and I'm trying to stress the point that if you are an alcoholic and need help to stop drinking, labels don't really matter. Words don't matter. What matters is what am I going to do to get sober and get my life in order? Over thinking things and missing the big picture delays recovery. Put the focus on where it should be and don't let unnecessary clutter get in your way.

You know what ruined my self esteem? Drinking. Drinking to oblivion day in and day out. You know what helped it? I quit drinking and I found myself. Apples, oranges. I don't care to discuss them. I'm here to talk about recovery. Isn't that why we're all here?
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Old 02-22-2009, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery View Post
You tell me? I'm confused here. I thought we were discussing alcoholism not being fat or stupid. I've read about the choices you've been making lately and I'm trying to stress the point that if you are an alcoholic and need help to stop drinking, labels don't really matter. Words don't matter. What matters is what am I going to do to get sober and get my life in order? Over thinking things and missing the big picture delays recovery. Put the focus on where it should be and don't let unnecessary clutter get in your way.

You know what ruined my self esteem? Drinking. Drinking to oblivion day in and day out. You know what helped it? I quit drinking and I found myself. Apples, oranges. I don't care to discuss them. I'm here to talk about recovery. Isn't that why we're all here?
Yes, but I've always had an issue with labels, ever since I entered my first rehab program in 1977.
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Old 02-22-2009, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery View Post
You tell me? I'm confused here. I thought we were discussing alcoholism not being fat or stupid. I've read about the choices you've been making lately and I'm trying to stress the point that if you are an alcoholic and need help to stop drinking, labels don't really matter. Words don't matter. What matters is what am I going to do to get sober and get my life in order? Over thinking things and missing the big picture delays recovery. Put the focus on where it should be and don't let unnecessary clutter get in your way.

You know what ruined my self esteem? Drinking. Drinking to oblivion day in and day out. You know what helped it? I quit drinking and I found myself. Apples, oranges. I don't care to discuss them. I'm here to talk about recovery. Isn't that why we're all here?
No, semantics matter. I've had an eating disorder. So when I say I am fat at 115 lbs., people should take note. When I don't have a period due to two years of amennohrea (sp?), people should take note.

My point is, there are many addictions, and you should become better educated.

We are all in this boat together. I don't care whether it's alcohol-dependence, drug addiction, eating disorder, or what have you.
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Old 02-22-2009, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Phaleron View Post
I think you're both proposing the same conclusion, that this is a recovery website and we're all here to share our experiences of recovery/recovering.
Exactly, thank you, and I am not going to get mired down in the ********.
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:06 AM
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My point is, there are many addictions, and you should become better educated.
Seems to me that the poster is well enough educated to be sober. When it comes to alcoholism, really that's all the education that I need.
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:59 PM
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Thank you, Paul. You took the words right out of my mouth.

I will also add, Katie, you don't know much about me to make assumptions of my education of eating disorders or anything else for that matter. I'm trying to help you with your struggle. It seems you don't really want to hear what is being offered. Instead, you are letting your addiction and anger get the best of you.

I understand, I've been right where you stand. I don't judge, just trying to nudge you forward by offering what helped me. You can either take the helping hand that is being offered, or you can slap it away. That is your choice, but lashing out isn't going to help you get better. I think you keep straying from your focus. The focus being how are you going to stop drinking today? With that in order, everything else will fall into place. Good luck.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:00 PM
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I suggest that you not use the labels "addict" or "alcoholic."

They are examples of all-or-none thinking, and may be unhelpful because you can waste effort on wondering whether the label applies to you.

Sex, Drugs, Gambling, & Chocolate : A Workbook for Overcoming Addictions
by A. Thomas Horvath
I agree, labels are a waist of my time when it comes to recovery. So with that...Hi my name is Will and I'm on a healing journey. I personally have to watch my negative self-talk too. And for me that means to avoid labels that connote a negative self-image.
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:51 PM
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I found this part of the intro to the study interesting "Religiosity, however,
is strongly and positively related with psychopathology, which
we reasoned would be negatively related to AA affiliation."

So, the premise is that those who are more religious are more likely to have mental illnesses. Personally, I would go so far as to say that many religions are manifestations of mental abnormalities. Some religions were created by mentally ill people, and many religions prey on people with mental issues to this day. I'm just surprised to see it stated as fact in this paper, and I think that in so stating this, the authors show bias from the beginning.
This also seems to mess with the conclusion of the study. The way I interpret it, AA works more for those who are religious, yet works less for those who have mental issues, and those people who are more religious are more likely to be the ones with mental issues. Seems like the two "conditions" (religiousity and pyschopathology) should cancel each-other out to a certain extent as they pertain to success in AA.
Please correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions. No offense will be taken at any answer from which I might learn.
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:59 PM
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Hmmm I am an alcoholic and proud of the label! Talking about labels though, I don't know why but i don't like the term recovering alcoholic. I would rather say i'm an alcoholic and so i don't drink anymore.

I am quite fond of alchie too!
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Old 02-27-2009, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by yeahgr8 View Post
I totally agree with Katie, how is this a disease? I would not even call it an addicition! i think it is just a bad habit, let's be honest. Personally i haven't done it for over 4 months now and all i did was substitute drinking alcohol with a lovely cup of sweet tea and a choccie biscuit at the times i used to drink!
Substitution is a very common treatment for addictions. I think the fact that this is working for you is fantastic, but I also think it reinforces the idea that it is, indeed, an addiction.
My dad tried to quit drinking beer once. He went from a 12 pack a day to drinking 3-4 liters of soda per day, which had a much worse effect on his health. I don't think you'll see that with a cup of tea and a bit of chocolate, though..
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Old 02-27-2009, 03:09 PM
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Roadhunter i was taking the **** being sarcastic. I totally believe that alcoholism is a disease and totally agree that substitution is a complete waste of time to tackle any addiction.

Sorry i feel a bit bad now, don't be mad pls!
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