Welcome, AD. :)

When it comes to spirituality/religion, I'm like 7-Up and caffeine...

DK

Hi all...

I was just reading this thread for the first time and thought I'd join in the fun :)

As far as miracles go, the only one I have ever had any experience with is my children, as silly and cliche as that might sound. Having a life grow inside my body just totally blew me away. I mean I know the biology, etc of the process, but their little personalities and souls developing is just really amazing to experience. I know there's the whole nature/nuture arguement about personality developent, but anyone who has kids will know what I mean when I say that they each had their own way of being from the moment they were born.

I was raised an Irish Catholic :scared: and from childhood I had a really hard time with the whole idea of "be good or you'll burn in hell." I always felt that people should "be good" because they wanted to, becuse they thought that was the right way to live. After I moved out of my parents house, I stopped being involved in organized religion. After I had my kids, I started remembering the only positive association I had with my early church going days was the sense of community we had. After spending two years feeling it out, I became a Unitarian-Universalist last autumn. I swear my Mom thinks we've joined a cult! I try not to laugh at her questions, but man they are really funny sometimes.

Oops - I meant nurture...I'm a really poor typist

Lately I'm having a hard time dealing with my hatred for organized religion. I just get so angry, and I think it really affecting my opinions of others and it contributes to my distate for society in general.

I'm bringing this up to ask people how they've gotten past any anger they carry towards organized religion? I try to think of the good people have done in the name of religion-art, music... but it seems to be overshadowed by the bad. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Eroica, I'm having trouble with that myself.

When it comes to society in general, there's not much for me to do about my anger at the moment. I suppose that when I'm well enough I can focus my energy on speaking out against groups that wish to legislate "morality" to the nth degree. I tire of certain groups and their quest to treat certain members of society as second class citizens.

When it comes to individuals, however, I try to focus on their good qualities.

Most of the people I talk to do have religious beliefs, but they really don't talk about it...and if they do they aren't pushy.

Eroica--

I never really *hated* organized religion, or any religion in general. I have a dislike of people who can't leave me alone and try to force their religious opinions on me though. I had to get over it fast though. I got an uber-Baptist roommate when I was 19, and we lived together for 2 years. We'd never met until the day we moved in together, and the first thing she asked me after introductions is where I went to church. We had our moments but we both learned a lot about religious tolerance and we remain good friends ten years later.

It's true lots of bad things have been done in the name of religion. But I don't think atheists get a pass on this; the non-religious people of the world have a few skeletons in the closet (lest we forget Stalin was allegedly an atheist, if you want an easy example... plenty of people were sent to the GULAG for practicing their religion of choice). All people have a capacity for good and bad, regardless of religion. Religion is an easy cloak to wear for someone with political ambition and/or a ruthless killing streak because it taps into people's emotions and they are more likely to follow along. I started viewing religion as a tool used for various purposes, some good and some bad. In a way I guess I think of religion the way people think of screwdrivers. I could use a screw driver for its intended purpose, or I could use it to stab someone to death. The screwdriver itself is not responsible for the actions I take (Right. Screwdrivers don't kill people, people kill people. Where's Charlton Heston to tell us we can have his screwdriver when we pry it from his cold, dead fingers? :lmao) Likewise, any religion can be turned to any purpose you can think of.

I find it so difficult not to hate; and when I do not hate I feel we few are so lonely in the world. ~Bertrand Russell, Letter to Colette, 1918

Hi Eroica,

A disclaimer: I tend to ramble, and I'm not always good at getting my point across in a way that other people understand...

I recently read a really good book. It's called Nonviolence: Twenty-five lessons from the history of a dangerous idea by Mark Kurlansky. It's pretty much what is says it is: a brief history of the non-violence movement. The author is definitely not a big fan of organized religion, and spends a lot of time discussing its role in much of the violence throughout history, but manages condemn actions as oppposed to people. He discusses the importance of nonviolence as a way of life: nonviolent thinking, speech, and action. It helped me to come to terms with some of the anger I felt towards organized religion, and to realize that fighting hatred with hatred just isn't going to work.

One needs to create one's own society. Simply standing by and hating the way things are is not going to change them. Find like minded people, and engage with them, and actively support any facet of society you can feel good about. Changing the world is another one of those things that needs to be taken one day at a time. Baby steps are still forward motion :)

All the best,
Daisy

my religion tonite was makin homemade bbq sauce. carolina-louisiana style. i was god of teh sauce. i was the saucemeister.

bow down and worship teh Sauce Jaysus !!

I'm glad I'm not the only one!!

Nonviolent reaction has always been interesting to me, mostly because I have so much trouble actually practicing it. I usually keep my cool but in my head I grumble a lot, call people names, and generally want to strangle them when they p!ss me off. That said, I was raised Quaker. It's supposed to be a peace church and somehow even though I dutifully went nearly every Sunday and listened to my First Day school teacher, the lesson never really took I guess. A Quaker once told me that sometimes it's not possible to get past that negative or violent thought pattern but the next best thing was wanting to get past it. *Shrug*

Thanks for your opinions everyone. I know that there are very many good people who believe in religion. Its the actual texts, the messages in it, that I hate.. hate that they exist, and hate that people believe in them. The Bible, Koran, and even the holy books of an Eastern religion like Hinduism is extremely violent, bigoted, racist, anti women, every negative adjective I can think of.. of course they preach other things too, and they're poetic, and some people don't take them literally...but they're the source of the religion... the instruments of control. Don't mean to offend anyone but I feel offended that people believe in them.. including my own family. But it causes conflict in me too because I don't want to judge them either.

As for hatred, I know hate is a strong word but I can't help how I feel. Do people here not hate things and other people? lol Don't worry I don't hate anyone on SR.

daisy, you're right. Just sitting around hating religion won't do anything. I should really join some kind of organization that fights or actively campaigns against religion...hmmm I think that might help me stay sober too and maybe i'll feel less angry as a result of it

I'll be one of the first to raise my hand up in the air.


I think it is important to recognize how you feel and do something positive with those emotions.


Don't get me started on the whole "Stalin was an atheist" crap. He was extremely dogmatic in his views. Marxism and communism cannot be compared to atheism.

Okay, a much water downed version from my PM to you. I 'm actually fearful of religious people. I was once angry that something could get such a hold of ones mind...regardless if its good or bad...that when I interacted with such a person I sensed something was amiss. I still get the heebee-geebees when I encounter...how to say this... an entrenched ideology persona? Its like I see the indoctrination has taken over and what remains seems hollow and void of a person. I guess I value doubt and question faith.

Like I said:

People stir up crap in the name of their religion (or lack thereof) all the time. So if non-religious folks won't allow religious people to get away with the tired old, "But he wasn't a REAL [Christian/Muslim/Whatever], he was just pretending so he could twist people to his will," the non-religious don't get to use it either. :)

As far as religious texts being bigoted... they were written in a different time and place. It hardly seems fair to judge a culture by the standards of a completely different one. And to say something approaching, "I hate bigots" is risky, IMO. That's flirting with bigotry in itself. It does worry me though, the number of people who cling to those lessons and use them to justify hatred of others. You'd think sometime in the last 1500+ years society would have moved on, but apparently the more things change the more they stay the same.

Sorry, gneiss...I realized later that I came across as a complete a$$.




:)

There are people who are religious who do commit atrocities, but not in the name of any religion, just the same as there are atheists who do commit atrocities, but not in the name of atheism. Stalin didn't do what he did in the name of atheism.

When people/countries/groups do commit atrocities in the name of anything dogmatic, whether religious or political, I find that unacceptable. What Stalin did was horrible and wrong.

I do make the distinction between whether it was done in the name of something or not. I don't assume that someone did something just because they are religious unless it's very clear that's the reason they did.

For example:

There are religious groups in the U.S. who campaign and fight for the right to deny rights to gays. They do this in the name of their religion and they have a lot of power behind their movement. Now, this isn't to the level of what Stalin did, but these people use their beliefs as justification for their actions to supress the rights of others. They can hate me all they want as long as they let me be. Problem is, they aren't leaving me and millions of others alone.

No worries, Bam. I'm queen of the asses.

http://www.freefoto.com/images/01/12...Donkey_web.jpg

Nice Ass !

"And I tell you that your righteousness – our righteousness – will prevail. Day by day, year by year, generation by generation."

"it’s not about being the same. It’s not even about believing in the same things; it’s about the values we all share."

These lines are from a sermon given by a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago at my church (as some of you know, we're UUs). He and his same-sex partner have a son in Sunday school with one of my daughters. The transcript is here: Unitarian Pride - Rev. Sam Trumbore - timesunion.com - Albany NY. I thought some might be interested in reading it, as I was reminded of it by this conversation. It deals with hate, and religion, and hope, all at the same time :)

I greatly admire the Quakers. They as a group have historically made a great many sacrifices in the name of peace and should be honored by us all.

Ghandi created the only proactive word for non-violence: satyagraha. According to him, the translation is "holding on to truth", or "truth force". Ghandi wrote, "Nonviolence is a perfect stage. It is a goal towards which all mankind moves naturally, though unconciously." He believed that it is the work towards this unattainable goal that matters, which is pretty much what you were told.

I hate to sound sappy and corny, but I do it all the time anyway :)

Hate is an emotion, just like any other, and emotions can't be good or bad, they just are...I hate, but I try really hard to hate actions and ideas rather than people. It doesn't always work out that way :) but as Gniess said, just wanting to not hate is a step in the right direction.

After I had my first daughter, I became aware of things in a different light. I used to fight against things, but I came to realize that it was like banging my head against a wall. I was trying to overcome negativity with negativity and it just didn't seem to work. Now I fight FOR things I believe in, and the positivity of it all has really made me more at peace with the world.

Now we can all make a circle, join hands, and start singing "We Shall Overcome"... ;)

@ Eroica

'Hate', imo, is a pretty strong word.

Its like watching someone dangling from a branch by one hand on the edge of a cliff. They are looking up at you with fear in their eyes, asking for help. You spit on their face and watch them fall to their death. That is "hate" to me.


@ Gneiss

As the saying goes: "God please protect me from your followers!"