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Old 01-23-2009, 10:43 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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You are just prejudiced DK.

BB joke there, ba-dum-tish!
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Old 01-23-2009, 10:49 AM
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I do not consider the Big Book a textbook. In order for it to be considered a textbook, it would need to be based on empirical evidence. The Big Book is not assigned to medical student studying addiction/alcoholism. At best, I'd call it a guide, or practical advice. There are many such guides when it comes to addiction. There are several other versions of 12 step programs, for example, and also many books on recovery that do not include taking steps or adopting supernatural beliefs in order to recover.
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Old 01-23-2009, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
The way I feel about it is this:

AA and the Big Book are overtly disparaging towards people with secular beliefs. To me, that is no different than if it were any other group of people being demeaned and scapegoated in the name of sobriety. I wouldn't join a white supremacist group or an anti-gay movement to facilitate my recovery either...
Well, I'd typed this whole post out and lost it. My stance is that AAers are free to believe as they choose, however, please do not attempt to convince me I've read the book and have not "gotten it", I haven't "seen the light", I haven't given AA enough of a shot. My first AA meeting was 32 years ago. If I ain't "gettin' it" by now maybe it's because it's not for me and many other people. At times certain AAers come across as evangelical and that really bothers me and turns me off even more. I say GRRRR back.
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Old 01-23-2009, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Pagekeeper View Post
I do not consider the Big Book a textbook. In order for it to be considered a textbook, it would need to be based on empirical evidence. The Big Book is not assigned to medical student studying addiction/alcoholism. At best, I'd call it a guide, or practical advice. There are many such guides when it comes to addiction. There are several other versions of 12 step programs, for example, and also many books on recovery that do not include taking steps or adopting supernatural beliefs in order to recover.
Thank you so much for this cool response. I tend to react emotionally when someone in AA puts forth the BB as "the way, truth and life" to everlasting sobriety. I really have to restrain myself in those situations and I know my blood pressure shoots up. I think the BB can be useful to some people, but harmful to others - much like AA meetings, sponsors and the like.
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Old 01-23-2009, 11:56 AM
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I didn't expect this type of response here.

I am pretty sure I don't need any book to quit drinking big or other.

Last edited by Fubarcdn; 01-23-2009 at 12:23 PM. Reason: add
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Old 01-23-2009, 01:19 PM
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Fubar -- I'm not sure I need the big book but the meetings I do need for sure. If you don't need either I think that's great. Seriously.

I typed my response just because that's been my experience .. not pushing it on anyone in anyway. I surprised myself with it really.
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Old 01-23-2009, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
The way I feel about it is this:

AA and the Big Book are overtly disparaging towards people with secular beliefs. To me, that is no different than if it were any other group of people being demeaned and scapegoated in the name of sobriety. I wouldn't join a white supremacist group or an anti-gay movement to facilitate my recovery either...

Thanks for this, DK. Great post.
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Old 01-23-2009, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by PaperDolls View Post
Fubar -- I'm not sure I need the big book but the meetings I do need for sure. If you don't need either I think that's great. Seriously.

I typed my response just because that's been my experience .. not pushing it on anyone in anyway. I surprised myself with it really.
I am not being critical of anyone. I guess the response I wanted was just a relax and don't let it bother you.

I understand different people have different needs. Just wanted to vent. Sorry I stirred up a big discussion thing. I am sure most of you are tired of that age old topic anyways. Peace.:ghug
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Old 01-23-2009, 02:30 PM
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What were we talking about again?
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Old 01-23-2009, 03:25 PM
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Wull... someone advised me yesterday on another thread in SC to pray about my dilemma and turn to my HP. I'm still not sure if he was serious or not. "Sorry, dude, wrong forum."

I read through the newcomers forum once and never posted, I just jumped into SC and the women's forum. All the god-talk was a little too much for me.

My turn to vent.

Here's what annoys me: I have a friend who cleaned up by himself. No AA/NA, no internet forums or anything. He decided he was done and that was it, he stopped. I'm very proud of him for it. However, the last time he used we both got hammered and snorted oxycontin. I had a little more trouble sticking to it, and about a week later I did some other drugs (that was the last time I used). A friend told him about it and he called the next day, acting kind of holier-than-thou, and scolded me. "You're a loser, I hope you're still alive this time next year. Do you want to end up like [a friend who overdosed and died right before Thanksgiving]? You're an idiot. Blah blah blah blah." Call me crazy but over several months this guy and I did pot, oxycontin, hydrocodone, methadone, seroquel, crack cocaine, powder cocaine, methamphetamine, and more alcohol than I will ever remember (indeed, thanks to the alcohol I have no memory of several nights). Why does he think he gets to act like Jesus because he had not used drugs in a week?
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Old 01-23-2009, 03:26 PM
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It's all good Fubar. I think we're all on the same page. :ghug

Windy, I think we were talking about Grrrrrrrrrr.
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Old 01-23-2009, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by gneiss View Post
Call me crazy but over several months this guy and I did pot, oxycontin, hydrocodone, methadone, seroquel, crack cocaine, powder cocaine, methamphetamine, and more alcohol than I will ever remember (indeed, thanks to the alcohol I have no memory of several nights).
Wowsers! I've never seen all the drugs I did listed out like that. That's actually kind of terrifying.
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Old 01-23-2009, 03:47 PM
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He may mean well so don't judge him too harshly. There is an old sasying though. There is nothing worse than a reformed alkie. or something like that.
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Old 01-23-2009, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by zencat View Post

Now I try my best to avoid, suppress, resolve and heal those old spiteful behaviors. I didn't get sober to be an anti-A.A. activist... LOL.
I agree. It can be easy to be mad at AA but that doesnt really help us become sober.

As for being disparaging against people with secular beliefs.. that kind of goes without saying. If the program is about God then of course secularism will be criticized, just as it would be in any church or mosque. I'm a vegetarian and I sometimes catch myself wanting others to eat less meat. I don't necessarily think I'm disparaging against meat eaters though..

Really, the more I think about it.. if you're an atheist then theres no possible way you can follow the program unless you tailor it. But then its really not the same program, and its the responsibility of AAers to inform secularists that AA is a religious program. If they did there would be a LOT less confusion.
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Old 01-23-2009, 04:31 PM
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See that is the rub Erotica...aa is dishonest about the program...the reasons for this in 2009 is that money is involved...and I'm not talking about the buck in the basket. Even with many court rulings declaring aa religious the bait and switch continues and money pours in.

It's not like after the bb was published people said "hmmmm...the bb sounds religious." There is a whole chapter dedicated to it....and that was the 1930's...a far different time in our world.

It is funny I am not "secular" since I believe in God but the theology taught in the bb is diametrically opposed to my beliefs. When examined closely not many religions believe in a human malleable God.

Sobriety always has been and always will be up to the individual.
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Old 01-23-2009, 05:04 PM
  # 36 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Fubarcdn View Post
He may mean well so don't judge him too harshly. There is an old sasying though. There is nothing worse than a reformed alkie. or something like that.
I know he means well. He's actually one of my best friends and we kind of got into this whole drug situation together. He's worried about me and when he's worried he gets mad and acts like an @$$. Still though, even though it REALLY annoyed me, I guess I needed it. It gave me a little motivation because I told him I was done and now I don't want to let him (or myself) down. I stopped for myself but the subtle competition is a useful tool.
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Old 01-23-2009, 05:36 PM
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One of my ex-sponsor's favourite sayings, when someone wasn't acting right, was "bless him/her"... I know he meant well, but it just seemed a bit patronising...

It's similar when someone says they'll pray for you... I usually try to remember to ask if they'll sacrifice a goat for me too...

The quotation in the big book that says about "contempt prior to investigation" is wheeled out a lot, but i like the richard dawkins quote- "we should be open minded, but not so open minded that our brain falls out"...
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Old 01-23-2009, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by spark42 View Post
It's similar when someone says they'll pray for you... I usually try to remember to ask if they'll sacrifice a goat for me too...

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!! I have GOT to remember that one.
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:52 PM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Pagekeeper View Post
I do not consider the Big Book a textbook. In order for it to be considered a textbook, it would need to be based on empirical evidence. The Big Book is not assigned to medical student studying addiction/alcoholism. At best, I'd call it a guide, or practical advice. There are many such guides when it comes to addiction. There are several other versions of 12 step programs, for example, and also many books on recovery that do not include taking steps or adopting supernatural beliefs in order to recover.
Actually, it is empirical, it is what the first men and women did to recover. Here's my experience, every man I know who has thoroughly done the work in the Big Book has gotten sober and remained that way. Does this mean it is the only way? nope, it is the best way for some of us.

I'm not here to push God on anyone, matter of fact, the book says the desire to find God must come from wihin, so no worries, none of you are in danger of accidentally catching it.

I read this forum because there are things I learn here, alcoholism is a disease of separation, for too long I have taken an us VS. them stance, no longer, there are a few folks who post on this forum whose sobriety I respect, they are not wasting time ripping on AA, they show a genuine concern for their fellow humans, and a willingness to remain teachable as well as teachers, that's what I would like for myself.
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Old 01-23-2009, 10:38 PM
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Throw stones at me, but I went to an AA meeting this evening.

On my out I ran into a wonderfully intelligent woman who I'd met once before who was coming to the next meeting, so I stayed for that one, too. We had a good conversation afterward, all of it relating to life.

Both meetings were thought provoking, illustrating facets of the human condition in the context of alcoholism's ramifications, and in seeking a healthy balanced life, that were meaningful to me.

I know it's not the only path or guide to a satisfying sober life. But since it's the only face-to-face game in my town, I'm learning a lot, I get my nose out of the books I've got piled up and away from the computer, and so far I've gleaned some valuable insights and tools; certainly no harm, no foul. Oh, and having more good friendships are something I look forward to, especially those in real time around a kitchen table.

Maybe I'm just secular and lucky.
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