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Why does secular recovery bring out the animal in some?

Old 03-19-2008, 12:48 PM
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Why does secular recovery bring out the animal in some?

They had to close a thread.......what does that tell you?

"Love and tolerance is our code."
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Old 03-19-2008, 01:29 PM
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Toad, While I don't normally participate in this forum, I have learned so much here. I will forever be grateful for venturing in. The beauty of this site is the ability to read countless post....one can go as far back as 2003. So many of the people I identify with are from secular recovery...not because I don't believe in God, but because I don't believe it is Gods responsibilty to keep me sober. I prefer to leave my religion and my sobriety seperate. It kinda makes me secular in the sense of aa.

I did not post this to cause waves...just the opposite in fact....I wanted to let the good people here know how much I have been helped by their insight, experience and humor. There will always be people who set out to flame, hidden agendas perhaps, but in general this forum provides so much hope to thoses who have questions that can't be answered in other forums.

okay...a wit bit embarrassed...but I'm postin anyway...
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Old 03-19-2008, 01:40 PM
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Toad, that's a cheap shot. This isn't "secular recovery". It's just crap recovery. You'll find plenty of it, inside the fellowship and out. Just like you'll find plenty of the other stuff, inside and out.
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Old 03-19-2008, 01:40 PM
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There's nothing particularly animalish about this board. They're often closing threads on the 12-step board too, when the disputes about who's a Real Alcoholic or whatever get a bit ratty.

I do think the lack of traffic means that sometimes people parachute in and start shooting their mouths off a bit - there's less sense of an ongoing conversation.

But I quite like the fiery threads and they're often full of interesting and helpful writing - I enjoyed Sunyata's (?) stuff on the thread that got closed, even though s/he was a bit grouchy about AA.
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:14 PM
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...just listening...
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:25 PM
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Why is secular recovery "crap" recovery?
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by nolonger View Post

I do think the lack of traffic means that sometimes people parachute in and start shooting their mouths off a bit - there's less sense of an ongoing conversation.
Thanks for sharing.

I thought about my original question, and realized that it might have been a loaded question. I am sorry. I was just discouraged that the other thread had been closed.

I would enjoy hearing more about the experience, strenght, and hope, of those who are involved in secular recovery and how they do it.

I would like to hear about the numbers of people who attend meetings (if meeting are attended). Are there just a few, maybe 50, or a hundred or more, that kind of numbers.

I am curious about fellowship. BBQ's, dances, etc.

I am curious about the books that might be read.

Thanks for letting me be curious.

"Love and tolerance of others is our code."
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by toad View Post

I would enjoy hearing more about the experience, strenght, and hope, of those who are involved in secular recovery and how they do it.
I have looked for such answers from time to time around here but have not seen much posted on it. My thoughts are...ok a different way, something they use could be added to my tool bag along with my other tools.
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Old 03-19-2008, 09:53 PM
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Maybe it would help if we let our secular members have their forum and give them the space to express their opinions within the forum rules. I've seen some really good threads get sabotaged pretty quickly and then everyone backs away again.

AA is not going to be the recovery method of choice for most secular members. Some secular members can make a 12 step program work for them, but it seems the majority can't or would prefer not to.

There have been a few times when a secular member will join the forums with the sole purpose of bashing 12 step programs. There have been just as many times when members of 12 step programs or those who believe in God will jump in on a thread when they would not usually post on this forum.

A member should be able to post on this forum and express honest experience about their frustrations with 12 step recovery without having everyone jump in with opposite opinions. Another member should be able to post their honest opinion about how they work secular recovery using 12 step recovery without everyone jumping in with opposite opinions.

When I first came to SR I had a huge problem with trying to control my son and cure his alcoholism. I had to learn to respect him. By learning to respect him I learned to respect the choices that others make also. It's a universal concept. It's none of my business what anyone else believes. It's not my job to jump in to protect other members of the forum from opinions that I think might hurt them. It might be the very thing that helps them. I remember one time my son was out there in dangerous territory. I asked the members on the anon forums what they thought. They suggested I leave him out there. I posted for opinions on the substance abuse forums and they told me to go get him. I chose to go get him and will never regret that. I'm so glad I had all the opinions so I could make an informed choice. When I got back home safely everyone on the anon forum was happy I made it home ok. There were no judgments or resentments that I didn't do it their way.

Each of us have our own choices, values, experience, and opinions. The recovery methods I use came from posts on these forums made by unique individuals with unique experiences and opinions. I was able to borrow a little bit from a lot of people and put something together that made sense to me. I will not go to an al-anon meeting, but I've borrowed a lot from al-anon that helped me tremendously. I'm really glad others went to those meetings and offered the information here.

When I first got here it is the first time I had ever talked to anyone about my son's alcoholism. I needed to get it all out first before I was ready to take a look at myself and start some recovery. Sometimes we just need to listen first. Sometimes there are real reasons for a member's frustrations. I've been very frustrated for members on this forum and I'm not even secular. Many times I've thought that they don't stand a chance around here. Every time they try to express themselves they meet resistance.

I've seen disrespect on both sides of the fence here, but this is the secular forum and I think we need to respect that as much as we respect the other forums that are topic specific.
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:24 PM
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I didn't say that secular recovery was crap recovery.... oh, never mind!

I suppose I was taking someone else's inventory, so I'm sorry.

I've always ended up frustrated in this forum because I'm not articulate enough. I'm more interested in the secular aspects of recovery. It seems to me that, for instance, something quite profound happens to a person when they "let go and let G*d", regardless of the metaphysics. Why is that? How does it help a person's personal growth to be able to relax and let things happen? There are I'm sure descriptions of a similar thing in SMART - why can't we talk about them? Seems to me that the language I use to describe my experience is unacceptable to some people. That's a shame. Yet all I'm interested in is what we have in common.

I've never paraded my secular credentials. I feel often driven out of here - by people like ***** - simply because I got sober in AA, and because I love the fellowship dearly. That seems to be enough to mark me down as "non-secular" - that and the fact that I'll vehemently defend AA from some of the misprepresentative BS that some people come out with. lol, or I used to. Now I can't be arsed!
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:35 PM
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Although I read some of the threads here in secular, I do not feel I have the right to reply or throw my 2 cents in when although I am not a religious person I utilize the program of AA. I am posting this reply to this particular thread to say that I am truly sorry that some members of AA and other 12 step forums feel the need to jump in and create chaos on your threads. It makes everyone who works the program of AA look bad. My thought is the only program I can work is what works for me. I can not force someone to believe as I do by cramming my beliefs down their throat. In fact I have found that to be the quickest way to make me turn and run from someone. I do hope that you realize that there are many people just like myself who respect your right to your beliefs and are happy that you have found something that works for you. You are doing what you need to do to do for your sobriety. That is what is important! I will continue to view the threads here just as I have done in other areas as I find that keeping an open mind helps me learn. Learning is part of growing. I hope to never stop growing. Take care and don't let the few people who like to stir the pot discourage you from posting in your forum. I wish you all the best and appreciate your candor and honesty.
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Old 03-20-2008, 03:31 AM
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Sorry NandM, I know it's not all about me but...

are you talking about me?

Are you saying that secular and AA are mutually exclusive? And that AAers should simply stay away from this forum?

I got sober in AA. That experience is real. I consider myself a secular person. That experience is real too. I consider that AA was the single biggest catalyst for change in my life, but I don't think that all catalysts for change are AA.

I don't think - contrary to the accepted position here - that secular means anti-religion. I think and have always thought that it means pro-human. Pro-life, literally rather than politically. Pro-joy. Pro-peace.

I'm tired of being anti-.
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Old 03-20-2008, 03:33 AM
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And why is the person who I named in my last thread's name starred out?
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Old 03-20-2008, 05:58 AM
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I don't really have time to comment properly on this thread right now (or on the sudden appearance of a new “12-step-secular board” – but I am not if sure *more* divisions are what’s needed) but I want to say that there is nothing as depressing as the way hardliners and dogmatists and black-and-white thinkers can so easily dominate discussions, either here or in real life.

All this "AA is a crazy cult for the weak-minded" or "if you've overcome alcoholism in any way other than by my narrow definition of AA, you were never an alcoholic in the first place" makes me want to go away and sit in a dark room. And when people start aggressively throwing their dogmatic, unimaginative, self-certain opinions around (usually with “that’s not my opinion, it’s just the truth!” added on)… I want to start banging my head against the wall of the dark room.

On the one hand, I feel like saying – there’s so much more unites than divides us as alcoholics and addicts, all this taking sides is so boring. But then, there’s nothing worse than papering over real differences to achieve a fake-happy consensus – especially since that consensus usually means that one group of people have to shut up and not really say what they think. Trust and humility seem to be the key things, but they aren’t easily come by.

(ends pious waffling)

Paul, if you're not articulate enough for this board, then there's no hope for the rest of us!
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Old 03-20-2008, 06:17 AM
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Oh, thanks for pointing out the new forum.....

I get the message eventually.....

:chatter
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Old 03-20-2008, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bugsworth View Post
Toad, While I don't normally participate in this forum, I have learned so much here. I will forever be grateful for venturing in. The beauty of this site is the ability to read countless post....one can go as far back as 2003. So many of the people I identify with are from secular recovery...not because I don't believe in God, but because I don't believe it is Gods responsibilty to keep me sober. I prefer to leave my religion and my sobriety seperate. It kinda makes me secular in the sense of aa.

I did not post this to cause waves...just the opposite in fact....I wanted to let the good people here know how much I have been helped by their insight, experience and humor. There will always be people who set out to flame, hidden agendas perhaps, but in general this forum provides so much hope to thoses who have questions that can't be answered in other forums.

okay...a wit bit embarrassed...but I'm postin anyway...
Bugs. I work a secular recovery and I consider myself very religious. You aren't the only one who likes to separate their recovery from their religion, that's why I don't find the 12 steps conductive to my recovery.

That's one reason I have trouble with meetings that end in the Lord's Prayer. A funny fact, the only meeting I found that did not end in that prayers was the meeting at my local Catholic church!
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Old 03-20-2008, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by paulmh View Post
Sorry NandM, I know it's not all about me but...

are you talking about me?

Are you saying that secular and AA are mutually exclusive? And that AAers should simply stay away from this forum?

I got sober in AA. That experience is real. I consider myself a secular person. That experience is real too. I consider that AA was the single biggest catalyst for change in my life, but I don't think that all catalysts for change are AA.

I don't think - contrary to the accepted position here - that secular means anti-religion. I think and have always thought that it means pro-human. Pro-life, literally rather than politically. Pro-joy. Pro-peace.

I'm tired of being anti-.
Paul, my thread was not about you. I was simply voicing my opinion that it is not my place to judge people in the secular community. I don't know enough about their beliefs. What I do know is that what is important is recovery. That is the bottom line. When I question or put down someone else for their beliefs or interupt their threads with such things then I am not encouraging recovery I am hindering it. I feel it is important for those in the secular community to know that there are many people who work 12 step programs that are able to respect the differences in recovery programs concentrating on the similiarites rather than the differences. Just because AA works for me does not give me the right to say that someone else is wrong because their beleifs and recovery program are different than mine. The bottom line is recovery. I am happy when anyone survives the disease of addiction/alcoholism and is able to find sobriety, no matter how they find it. I am sorry that you took my post as a personal attack as it was in no way intended to be that.
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Old 03-24-2008, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
Maybe it would help if we let our secular members have their forum and give them the space to express their opinions within the forum rules. I've seen some really good threads get sabotaged pretty quickly and then everyone backs away again.

I've seen disrespect on both sides of the fence here, but this is the secular forum and I think we need to respect that as much as we respect the other forums that are topic specific.
Exactly. I wouldn't dream of busting in on the "mens" forum and jumping in on those threads. Maybe we should have one of those angry smileys with the stop sign for this forum. "Stop! Secular talk only!" Would mods consider that? People who come in and post inappropriately could receive warnings.
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Old 03-24-2008, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by nan07 View Post
Exactly. I wouldn't dream of busting in on the "mens" forum and jumping in on those threads. Maybe we should have one of those angry smileys with the stop sign for this forum. "Stop! Secular talk only!" Would mods consider that? People who come in and post inappropriately could receive warnings.
There hasn't been anything posted on this thread in over 4 days and here you are stirring it up again..........We have a saying in AA, share this with me, "If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting."

Maybe you need a warning yourself, don't you know that the more you stir it the more it stinks.........said in love.

I love you and there is not a damn thing you can do about it.

If I am cruious about secular recovery do I not have the right to post here and ask questions?.......toad
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Old 03-24-2008, 04:07 PM
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ask questions all you like Toad

not sure about the 'here you are stirring it up' line tho...apart from being a pot kettle moment, it's pretty much not a contribution conducive to reasoned discussion IMO.

D
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