ShawMac

Thanx,Zencat appreciate the input,gonna try to be mellow-minded

Melanchonika

ShawMac, we think very similarly. I too have had a religious upbrining, and by that i dont mean a denomination.

i agree that spirituality is very very different from religion. religion is based on performance and rules. you will alwasy fall short, and it alwasy delivers shame and guilt. while i know this is a secular forum, i say this for analogy: Jesus himself hatred religion. if someone disagrees, then you havent yet discerned properly between spirituality and religion.

my upbringing was a 'religion'. my church followed a 'religion'. my al-anon group followed a religion. so have workplaces where i worked. someone is looking to be your superego. you wont get well that way, IMO. i have lived through it to a degree that harmed and hurt me so much, i now beleive at the heart of recovery is trying to heal from 'religion'. we all have one, and it permeates us to the point that when we fall short we self-loathe. in my opinion there are many more 'religious' addicts out there today than any other kind. and they dont need to surrender to a particular denomination...or even attend church ever, at all. they just need to keep raising the bar, and jumping through hoops, all while trying to dodge the guilt they feel. religion sucks.

i am very opinionated when it comes to religion..i had to read many spiritual abuse books to be validated with what i was experiencing and feeling (just as you are doing now, ShawMac)...there were a few other things/people that were used likewise to aid me in my delivery from religion. i have yet to find a church i can safely attend and not feel indoctrinated, guilted, manipulated, or squelched. for me i do beleive in God, but not religion. people at church cannot stomach my philosophy....and they hate that i speak out against their 'religion'..because they cling to it for life. the think they worship a HP but they really worship religion. my own husband thinks *im* the one who is in a cult, for thinking this way.....you become ostracized.

my point is, i understand you. you are not alone,......i know the feeling casue to this day most poeple dont know what i speak of, and when i find someone who has had it revealed to them as well, i rejoice in my heart.

ShawMac

Thanx Melanchonika, for the moral support--I had no idea people would seem to misunderstand--I was wondering if I was voicing my thoughts properley or not--I just dont see why people find it so incomprehensible that you can make a "religion" out of almost anything.I can tell from your post that you are one who sees things as I do!--Thanx

Melanchonika

i 100% agree anything can become a persons religion. sometimes religion is closely related to idolatry. or should i say idolatry plays a part in religion, and vice-versa.

my hatred of clutter is a religion. i will let it rule me. i will let it alter my day. i will allow junk out of place to take over my mind, for a whole hour. for two hours. on and off for an entire day. i serve clutter. clutter dictates to me what i do next. i will let the 'truth' of that clutter isnt the best thing, to get mixed up with ideas 'false' about clutter, such as it will haunt me or make me miserable if i dont deal with right away. so, the cycle goes on, with clutter dictating, and clutter wins. i idolize clutter. i have a very sick relationship with clutter.

now, eventually i see its not really about clutter, clutter is the trigger.....clutter is the temptation..........clutter is the way my sickness manifests, or plays out. the real religious sickness is within myself, in my core........and to stay well, i must recognize it, and eradicate it, and call it out for its lies it tells me. i cant live at peace and harmony, while indulging in clutter.

some say if i go to church, find God, or attend meetings, i can better from clutter. while this is true.....i went to church; they told me to serve......just not clutter. i went to God (who at that time was really only my superego....not the real God anyway)....well, my superego wanted to control me, just the same way clutter did. i went to some meetings, and they assured me that getting out of myself.....and giving to the meetings/people instead would help. but when i did all those things, it seemed like the same principles were working, just like with the clutter. i was told when you are doing it for something GOOD though, it is blessed; you WILL get better, as long as you keep doing it. but i never got better.

in short, i think anything that causes you to operate out of weakness, isnt healthy for you. meetings, books, counselors.....that use shame and guilt will keep a person stunted and acting/serving/doing out of weakness. now doing something, or operating out of STRENGTH is completely different. some types of help will only reitterate and pick up where our last weakness left off. other recovery tools will teach us a radical new way.....and teach us to operate out of strength. i dont just want to stay clean from clutter....i want to learn the radical new way. the life i never lived.......i want that life now. and im not willing to settle for any recovery helps that only duplicate the same principles that kept me sick. because, thats not really recovery then.

CJ-50

Shawmac -- Thanks for the invite over to your thread.

AA professes to be "open" system but has become increasingly "closed system." In that sense, for me, it has moved away from being a spiritual program to a religion. It's not just that every prayer used is a Christian prayer -- at the 11th step meetings they even read the last few sentences of the St. Francis prayer "It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life." What does that have to do with recovery? That's straight out of Christian theology and each time I hear it I'm reminded of the fear-based religion I've left behind.

Anyway -- I have hope when I think about the "open" system aspects -- "we know only a little - more will be revealed"; "god of my understanding"; "only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking"; "suggested steps of recovery" -- these precepts of AA articulate a recognition that we don't know everything and that we will learn more, that the canon is open, and that all spiritual beliefs are welcome.

What I've found in meetings is closed system: god has a "plan" for you and you should do his "will" (not all concepts of god are compatible with that statement); all you need is the Big Book (if it isn't in the big book, don't talk about it); you have to do what we tell you to do to get sober (we have the secret); if you don't like it leave; we don't want to hear what newcomers have to say - shut up, sit down, & listen; you have to call yourself an alcoholic to participate in the meetings (admitting you have a problem with alcohol & having a desire to stop drinking it not enough).

That's a start -- does anyone get what I'm talking about?

CJ

Taking5

I have never experienced any of the above in an AA meeting, except for one old timer telling me newcomers should be seen and not heard. When he said that 3 or 4 people came to my defense when it was their turn to share.

It is really sad that there are AA groups like that. If it was like that, or ever becomes like that, in my home group I'll be gone ASAP.

It is actually an eye opener for me to realize that this type of behavior is common.

paulmh

Welcome Shawmac!

What you seem to be saying is that it's AA's fault that you can't stop relapsing? If I were you I'd give it a wide berth then. As they say, simply cast it from your mind. Obssessing about it and building up resentments will do you no good in your search for a life of recovery. Maybe you could have a bash at Rational Recovery?

Lots of alternatives on offer!

ShawMac

Hey Paulm, I have a resounding Nooooo!!! to your question.Once again misunderstandings abound! I clearly stated in an earlier post that I did NOT blame AA or the individuals therein for my relapse--my relapse is sollely MY responsibility and is a reflection(I guess) of my inability (at this time) to firmly grasp a "program" of any sort(personal or otherwise). Anywaayyy.... as for Melanchonika and CJ-50--GOD BLESS YOU!--My eyes have "teared up" when I read your posts .Someone (or two) really does think and feel as I do (and have articulated such thoughts and feelings more succinctly than I can--and Im afairly articulate guy) I cant WAIT for more posts from you--They are so comforting.Right now Im not much in a "projecting mode"--Im tired,worn out,still healing from my personal debacle--I feel my "receptive" mode going to kick in for a while.I am new to"computer land" and have never posted or "chatted" anywhere before this( I just figured out that theres a"thank you" button at the end of posts!)Im sorta surprised(remember Im new to cyberspace!) of the number of people who disagree with the "secular"viewpoint who inhabit this forum(EVERYONES post has been appreciated).Isnt that a little like me jumping over to the women's forum and weighing in on issues?Hmmmm....(does that occur???)--Easy everybody, thats just a stray thought with a dash of humour-Indeed it IS a "forum" and I have reflected on everyones comments.Oh btw as per Paulm's comment about rational recovery--I have heard of it but dont know anything about it(and fairly certain not in my area). Final thought--I do not attend meetings with an antagonistic or "contrary" attitude---my thoughts and feelings on this(again,more succinctly expressed by CJ and Melanchonika) have developed over a lengthy period of time.God bless EVERYONE--gonna rest alittle now.

ShawMac

WHOOPS!!-I see now that the womens forum states Women Only Please and this forum's description welcomes any with thoughts or comments on the subject(as well it should be).MY BAD!-Guess some stray thoughts should remain that way!!
God Bless Everyone.

CJ-50

dgillz -- glad it hasn't happened to you.

And the meetings that it was worst at I quit going to. Mostly, I heard the anti-"high bottom" remarks from old-timers who were men (the "come back when you've really hit bottom" types). So I quit going to co-ed meetings. But I've also had women feel that it's fair game to come up to me and "comment" on (i.e. criticize) me or my share after meetings. Really offensive behavior -- I try to keep reminding myself that AA is open to all, even the mentally ill. But what bothers me is that, at least in my geographic area, the "no cross-talk" rule has really gotten downplayed & ignored. I've even had one person say in a meeting -- "well I don't know about your god CJ, but my god wouldn't do that" or words to that effect -- the point being, they actually called me out by name in their share after I shared. That sort of thing has really made me question if it is worth going just to get a weekly reminder that it is not safe for me to drink.

Oh well, it does feel better to get it off my chest. Thanks for listening.

CJ

agrippa

Shawmac,
You made a mistake. The world did not end; and, neither did you.
Determine the events prior to drinking again; and, determine how and why your coping system did not work.
Then, you may begin to think about repairing your coping skills.

It may useful to investigate other methods. They do exist.

The only f word is failure.

ShawMac

Thanx Agrippa,Youre certainly correct (I feel) on these matters.The tools and things Ive learned in AA, IOP and elsewhere,werent used properly by myself (if at all) at a critical moment--I need to chalk it up to a learning experience and forge ahead---thanx for redefining the "f" word!

AwesomeMachine

A.A., as with all recovery programs in popular use today, is largely a failure, claiming a success rate of 3%. A.A. is Roman Catholic Confession, without any forgiveness for sin. Members confess sin in small groups, but no one offers forgiveness. Therapy works in a similar way, sins are confessed, but no forgiveness is granted.

All recovery amounts to is different ways to justify sin, and eliminate the sins directly threatening one's life, while retaining the rest. The only recovery that works is giving up all sin.

I refer to sin, but not in the religious sense. Sin is any transgression across the bounds of Universal Justice, or Natural Laws governing three dimensional reality.

Roman Catholicism is an excellent way to recover from addiction. It isn't fear based like other types of recovery, and relies upon the purely rational to bring about immortality.

The cold steel of knowledge based on what can be known through the five senses, and analyzed without use of Truth; the human imagination exalting itself into the absolute authority; man being an end unto itself, witnessing 'what is' through extremely limited intellectual capacity, and even more limited sensory channels, becomes a weapon the human race uses to commit genocide against itself.

Secular humanists shall never be given authority to do anything besides litter the intellectual landscape with corpses. Secular humanists are the coming to pass of George Romero's Prophesy: 'When Hell is full, the dead will walk the earth'.

These are the undead, bodies without souls, attempting to eliminate the souls in living people through practice of the occult. Secular humanists have faith in many things. They are more faithful to dogmatic and systematic thought patterns meant to encase the world in darkness than Roman Catholics are to Doctrine meant to bathe the world in Light.

I used Roman Catholicism to recover, and it works.

Morning Glory

Hi AwesomeMachine,

Welcome to the forum.

If I'm reading your post right it appears that you are against secular views and you may want to post in the Spirituality forum. This forum is to share wisdom, inspiration, thoughts, experiences, and insights that foster personal growth, education and enrichment within our secular community.

Here is a link to the Spirituality Forum

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/spirituality/

Dee74

*shakes head*
*rubs eyes*
*exhales*

I'll be polite and say this was definitely *not* the case in my experience.

D

windysan

I promise to join if I can get one of those funny pointy hats !

thenewguy

I think the problem I have, and what makes me think it's closer to being it's own religion than anything else, is the seeming infallability of the Big Book.

You would think they would rewrite it to reflect the sensibilities and changes of modern life, but it seems "untouchable". Just my $0.02...

windysan

I kinda like the goofy terminology like "getting tight", "wet blanket", "jaywalker" and whatnot. That stuff cracks me up. I never told the wife that I was tired of her krap and that I was going out to "get tight". LOL

Taking5

I think "getting tight" was depression era slang for getting drunk.

mike_mass

Objection, your honor! There is specific mention of acceptance of foregiveness in the basic text:

"If we are sorry for what we have done, and have the honest desire to let God take us to better things, we believe we will be forgiven and will have learned our lesson. If we are not sorry, and our conduct continues to harm others, we are quite sure to drink. We are not theorizing. These are facts out of our experience." [Big Book, page 70, line 8]