Blogs


Notices

The God Illusion

Old 04-20-2007, 03:58 AM
  # 81 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Virginia, U.S.A.
Posts: 828
Originally Posted by Wii View Post
Not to disagree with all of you or any of you, I have done my research in my lifetime. I am at a place that makes me Very Happy. I can enjoy my time in this world Appreciating what is around me. I HAVE my evidence of God. I see it everywhere. Perhaps I am lucky or deluded but either way I am happy with it. If you can't appreciate the fruits then maybe your just not seeing what I see. I marvel at everything. And I appreciate everything even the bad. It just makes me appreciate the good.

What is that saying? "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Just study a blade of grass. Could YOU make that??
Well, I couldn't make a computer chip but I sure don't think Jehovia made all our PCs. lol

Whew, I sure hope people don't think nonbelievers are somehow blind, unappreciative, and miserable! Of course you don't have to be a Christian to appreciate the fruits around you and to be happy! As with all discussions like this, our thread is just filled with fallacious reasoning, assumptions, and assertions. As one guy said, you don't need to know logic to have debate, but if you know just a little, you will find it easier to spot these kinds of invalid agruments.

This is not an insult to anyone. When we consciously raise the level of quality in these discussions, everyone participating benifits. Even the readers. Reasoning and logic are just fantastic tools. Their application--their correct application--cuts through much banter and makes for a clear discussion all around. The aim should always to improve toward that end.

Ten
Ten Chips Down is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 04:04 AM
  # 82 (permalink)  
To Life!
 
historyteach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 9,294
The aim, on SR, is *recovery.*

Her point, as you know, is that people cannot make a blade of grass. Your counter arguement is falacious too, as you should be aware. False generalization, (I think - been a long time since I studied it, hehehe). But, claiming *you* can't make a chip isn't an answer to what she suggested. Other people can. But, none of us can make a blade of grass.

So, now that we know we are *all* apt to perpetuate fallacies, lets just stick to the mission of SR -- RECOVERY.

How does this arguement relate to your recovery, could be one way.
In sharing that experience and strength, (dare I say "hope" hehehe), there's no room for arguement; only recovery shared.
That's what it's all about!
(Can we put our right foot in, now? )

Shalom!

Last edited by historyteach; 04-20-2007 at 04:22 AM.
historyteach is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 04:05 AM
  # 83 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Virginia, U.S.A.
Posts: 828
Originally Posted by historyteach View Post
But, again, this message board is about recovery.
Let's try to stick to that.
There are plenty of boards available for arguement.

Shalom, my friend!
Sorry, Teach i just saw your post. (i've had a lot to catch up on!)

But... I don't want to go elsewhere!

Our topic is on the book, 'The God Delusion', making for an obviously spirited discussion. The thread could always be closed as with our other "Atheists in AA" thread. Barring that, it kinda is what it is, right?

Good morning, you!

Last edited by historyteach; 04-20-2007 at 04:22 AM.
Ten Chips Down is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 04:11 AM
  # 84 (permalink)  
To Life!
 
historyteach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 9,294
I'm aware of the topic, Ten.

How's it relate to your recovery?
That's the issue...

I see no reason to lock it now.
I'm simply giving all the members a reminder of what SR is about. Recovery.
We are here to help or be helped. Pretty simple, right?

Shalom!
historyteach is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 06:11 AM
  # 85 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Virginia, U.S.A.
Posts: 828
lol Teach ya can't have it both ways. Please quit debating my points if you do not want to debate my points! This creates the need to answer and correct in kind. It is not fair to expect otherwise. To wit:

Originally Posted by historyteach View Post
Just because someone else claimed I stated somehting, does not make it so!
I did not claim a numeracy arguement.
You did though.

Originally Posted by historyteach View Post
The belief in a god/gods/ goddesses/G*D has been around through earthly space and time. There is no known place that has not had that type of belief system. For obvious reasons, including community, comfort, and philosophical gratification.

The same cannot be claimed for your pink unicorn!
Examples of both numerum and antiquitatum fallacies.

Originally Posted by historyteach View Post
Since it cannot be proved scientifically, you *must* have faith not to believe.
Are you asking me to "prove" there is no God!?

To prove a negative?? Tsk, tsk, you know better!

Either way--I am not attached to "proof" on this subject.

Now... as Marius said, you are more than welcome to show us all some irrefutible evidence of a uniquely Christian God up there somewhere... but that burden is not on us. Do you see? We have nothing to show. The argument still holds, Teach: Takes more faith to believe.

Originally Posted by historyteach View Post
Her point, as you know, is that people cannot make a blade of grass. Your counter arguement is falacious too, as you should be aware. False generalization, (I think - been a long time since I studied it, hehehe).
Her comment was not fallacious. It was an implied argument for creationism. My answer was not a counter, was not false, was not generalization, though you make a great point in that she was saying humankind cannot create grass.

If you'll cease with these constant ripostes I'll happily endeavor to relate all this to recovery.

Ten
Ten Chips Down is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 06:20 AM
  # 86 (permalink)  
To Life!
 
historyteach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 9,294
Ten,
You will believe, with your faith since there is NO proof, whatever you will.
You've only repeated, again, what's been said 100 times. It's old, Ten...
Feel free to believe whatever you will. You have no need to prove. Neither do I.

This forum is about recovery. It's not up for negotiation. It is what it is.
Feel free to review the rules posted up top.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...7-welcome.html

Shalom!
historyteach is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 07:23 AM
  # 87 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Virginia, U.S.A.
Posts: 828
Originally Posted by Ten Chips Down View Post
Good morning all!

Good morning Historyteach!

i love you, you know that.
Just repeating for us all, Teach. There is no need to argue a thing into the ground, dear. Leadership by example is the highest model.

Friends -
Ten Chips Down is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 09:36 AM
  # 88 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MI
Posts: 132
Mjs -
a couple of points:
1- The bible cannot make you believe in God. And 'delusion of God' cannot make you not believe. No matter what one believes they have faith and there will always be something or someone to challenge that faith. What do YOU feel?? And if your'e not sure, that's more than ok. Someone one said in choosing b/w two options there is really a third choice and that is to 'not to choose b/w the two at all.' Really take a look at how you feel, are you also surrounding yourself by christian music or christian people? Are you still feeling doubtful or are you feeling releived?
2- Try reading the book called "The secret" it's a true concentration on you choice and how to master your thoughts, it's incredible what you can change when you realize how you think. When you learn that you can stop the obsessive thoughts, whether it be about God or weed, you will truley feel empowered. My bf is an addict and since I started reading this I've shared things with him...about slowing down the moment, embracing your thoughts, learning how to change it and then appreciating yourself for making the change. Habits die hard, be patient with yourself. You're in the right place.

Empower yourself to make your own choices! And if you want God's help let Him help, but remember he gave you free will so no matter what the decision is yours.

Best of Luck!
Selah is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 09:58 AM
  # 89 (permalink)  
Silly Rabbit
 
Emimily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 956
Blog Entries: 6
Reeeecovvveryyyyyy... yeah!

What kills me about newcomers in AA, and even some of the folks on here that are in the rooms, is that they have SUCH a hard time believing in a power greater than themselves. That's not God, at all. That's a power greater than they are.

Does it amaze anyone but me that alcoholics are such a bunch of egmaniacs? How hard is it to accept that you aren't the end all, be all of everything? Really. Now, I can't get down on a doorknob or anything, but I can definitely groove with the notion that my measly little 5'6" frame isn't the Big Guy. Or Girl, or flying spaghetti monster... **** man, if a flying spaghetti monster is where you're at, that's cool with me. It's probably a pretty badass Higher Power when you think about it.

The other thing that kills me is that all these cats get stuck on the verbage of the Big Book. Yeah, I dig the Big Book. I can get down with the 12 steps, and traditions for that matter, but I don't ever take the wording so seriously! I'd be a lot more bummed out if I did. Just like anything else, it's the principles behind the words that matter. You know, in the chapter "To Wives" Bill goes off for a minute on how a good wife sees her husband cheerfully through relapses, la-la-la. ********! His own wife was one of the key players in Al-Anon, learning to take care of herself... can't always trust the lingo, man.

So to me, it's like this. Go to AA if you can get over yourself, and don't go to AA if you can't. If you REALLY think you're it, then I'd rather you stay home than take up space at a meeting. That way we'll have enough seats for the kids who want it.

Peace!

Last edited by Emimily; 04-20-2007 at 09:59 AM. Reason: everything got italicized somehow... weird!
Emimily is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 11:00 AM
  # 90 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Virginia, U.S.A.
Posts: 828
Originally Posted by Emimily View Post
You know, in the chapter "To Wives" Bill goes off for a minute on how a good wife sees her husband cheerfully through relapses, la-la-la. ********! His own wife was one of the key players in Al-Anon, learning to take care of herself... can't always trust the lingo, man.
!!

You are defo teh cute, i like
Ten Chips Down is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 11:07 AM
  # 91 (permalink)  
Knucklehead
 
doorknob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
Originally Posted by Emimily View Post
What kills me about newcomers in AA, and even some of the folks on here that are in the rooms, is that they have SUCH a hard time believing in a power greater than themselves. That's not God, at all. That's a power greater than they are.

Does it amaze anyone but me that alcoholics are such a bunch of egmaniacs? How hard is it to accept that you aren't the end all, be all of everything? Really.
I don't believe that I or human beings are the end all, be all of everything. And I don't think this is a common belief among non-theists. It is common, however, for theists to project this belief onto us. I believe that are many things that are more powerful than myself. What I don't believe is that they intervene in the lives of humans in any kind of supernatural way. This goes against the core assertion of the 12-Step program that we can only recover by the intervention of God.

Now, I can't get down on a doorknob or anything, but I can definitely groove with the notion that my measly little 5'6" frame isn't the Big Guy. Or Girl, or flying spaghetti monster... **** man, if a flying spaghetti monster is where you're at, that's cool with me. It's probably a pretty badass Higher Power when you think about it.
I think you're missing the point behind the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

So to me, it's like this. Go to AA if you can get over yourself, and don't go to AA if you can't. If you REALLY think you're it, then I'd rather you stay home than take up space at a meeting. That way we'll have enough seats for the kids who want it.
That's awfully condescending. How bout go to AA if it is congruous with your belief system and don't go if it is antagonistic towards it. I go for peer support and try to accept all the religious jargon and assertions for what they are.

DK
doorknob is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 12:44 PM
  # 92 (permalink)  
Silly Rabbit
 
Emimily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 956
Blog Entries: 6
Wow! I got a post dissected by DK! That's like, I've arrived!

Hahaha. Kidding, we can make jokes. That's how I make pals, y'feel me?

Ok. Seriously now.

I really didn't mean to condescend. K, that's a lie, I did. I was being a ********, which is super lame. I don't belong in the secular realm, I kinda meandered in and thought I'd paste my little nonsense thoughts as well. This is my fault, and I was wrong to blast kids that don't share my deal. It super irritates me when people do that to me, so why would I do that to someone else? Thoughtlessness, that's why. Wicked uncool.

Anyway, you won't be seeing much more of the Emster (which is how I refer to myself in 3rd person... is that weird? Maybe? ) hanging around here. Also, I didn't mean to disrespect the flying spaghetti monster. It kinda reminds me of a Dane Cook bit, actually. Very dope, I like it.

Alright now, happy family. That's enough outta me. Enjoy your weekend, kittens!

xoxo
Emimily is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 01:49 PM
  # 93 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Owensboro, KY
Posts: 66
This is the purpose and description of this forum:

A forum to share wisdom, inspiration, thoughts, experiences, and insights that foster personal growth, education and enrichment within our secular community.

Just wanted to say that this thread has allowed people to share wisdom,thoughts and insights fostering personal growth, education and enrichment within our community. I have benifited from this thread and have no complaints about it. I am sure others feel the same way
marius404 is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 02:09 PM
  # 94 (permalink)  
Supercalifragilistic!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Pensacola, FL
Posts: 45
This is where faith comes into play. As a Christian who has puzzled the existence of God and It's nature, I've read a lot on the subject. But the more I try to categorize and analyze and compartmentalize, the more confused I get.

I finally stopped investigating. I know that I have a strong and solid connection with my HP, whom I call God. My faith takes me to places no amount of scientific evidence could.

Read C.S. Lewis's book, The Case for Christianity. That is, if you want to! It has helped strengthen my faith.
divinedesign21 is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 03:38 PM
  # 95 (permalink)  
Member
 
TexasDumb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 365
Wow,

My dad always taught me to "never argue Religion, Politics, or Fords versus Chevys."
He said it usually turns "pointless."
Man, was he right!

But, it is kinda fun, even knowing we aren't ever going to change anybody's mind....
TexasDumb is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 03:50 PM
  # 96 (permalink)  
Big Idiot Man Child
 
windysan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: La
Posts: 5,664
i'm too stupid for this thread. if god is out there he is prolly really busy emptying and filling the ocean, making the sun hot, make the world spin....i doubt he is playing a chess game with this backwoods louisianian as a pawn.
windysan is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 04:46 PM
  # 97 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by divinedesign21 View Post
I finally stopped investigating. I know that I have a strong and solid connection with my HP, whom I call God. My faith takes me to places no amount of scientific evidence could.

Read C.S. Lewis's book, The Case for Christianity. That is, if you want to! It has helped strengthen my faith.
I am glad you are comfortable whith your HP. Many people are not, though. I think that deserves respect as well. I know for me, the harder I tried, the worse I felt- the more phony. Finally, I took Ann Druyan's grandfather's words- "The worst sin would be to pretend." (He was an Orthodox Jew- said this in response to his son, who was an atheist- I found it to be a very compassionate and accepting thing to say.)

I am not saying people with faith are pretending- they have faith and there you go. But I am saying that not everyone does, nor sees the need for it. This is where I am.

I would recommend Demon-Haunted World, by Carl Sagan, in the spirit of understanding why some people feel just fine not believing. (I have read some Lewis, though not that one. He does have a good style- easy to understand even on the difficult subjects, which is the hallmark of a good writer.)
andshewas is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 06:40 PM
  # 98 (permalink)  
Wii
A SeaBird Living LandLocked
 
Wii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Smack Dab Right in the Middle of the U.S.A.
Posts: 238
Wink

^
^
^
The world was spinning she was right there with it......................
Wii is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 07:09 PM
  # 99 (permalink)  
Supercalifragilistic!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Pensacola, FL
Posts: 45
Originally Posted by andshewas View Post
I am glad you are comfortable whith your HP. Many people are not, though. I think that deserves respect as well. I know for me, the harder I tried, the worse I felt- the more phony. Finally, I took Ann Druyan's grandfather's words- "The worst sin would be to pretend." (He was an Orthodox Jew- said this in response to his son, who was an atheist- I found it to be a very compassionate and accepting thing to say.)

I am not saying people with faith are pretending- they have faith and there you go. But I am saying that not everyone does, nor sees the need for it. This is where I am.

I would recommend Demon-Haunted World, by Carl Sagan, in the spirit of understanding why some people feel just fine not believing. (I have read some Lewis, though not that one. He does have a good style- easy to understand even on the difficult subjects, which is the hallmark of a good writer.)
Everyone is on their own path. I respect people no matter what their beliefs. At least I try to practice tolerance. That's the hallmark of true Christianity...walking in love. It's hard...but I try.
divinedesign21 is offline  
Old 04-20-2007, 08:55 PM
  # 100 (permalink)  
Wii
A SeaBird Living LandLocked
 
Wii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Smack Dab Right in the Middle of the U.S.A.
Posts: 238
Wink

I think in discussing Religious or Spiritual beliefs, if you adopt an "I don't care" Attitude when someone attacks you and yours and get out of Persuasion Mode, discussions won't end up in a fist fight. I've seen this happen SO many times. I think the word in the program for this is "ACCEPTANCE".
Wii is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:31 PM.