Book discussion: "Getting Your Loved One Sober"
 

Hi,

This is just a heads-up that several of us want to start reading and discussing "Getting Your Loved One Sober" by Meyers and Wolfe. It would be wonderful if others are interested in reading and participating as well.

I'm waiting for my copy to come in the mail but would love to start discussing it next week.

Even before then, I'll admit that I've resisted reading it because of the title, which sounds like a fallacy and would almost certainly be considered illogical by AA and Al-Anon. I'll be very curious if the authors have evidence that a person can "get" anyone else sober. Help motivate, yes, but "get"? It should be an interesting read.

Has anyone out there read it already and have views to share?

Hi,

Yes it was the first book I went through. If you read the Beyond Addiction thread you will see it was like the first book published on CRAFT method. I wouldnt get into a debate on words "get" and like it means control or force. Its not like that, its because all the research shows its the most effective method for families to encourage sobriety, and something like 70% of people who use it get results. Their loved ones reduce or stop using and life gets better for the family. But skills also help the family member take care of themselves so regardless of what the spouse does they get stronger and healthier. Other programs that I know about, dont address the spouse for the most part, only the family member.

Im happy your going to review it. We all talked about starting with that book for review, but decided on Beyond Addiction because its a little easier to read. The GYLOS book is great, more technical I think. I got caught up and spend weeks on certain exercises involving mapping, but it was very helpful. It does take dedication to the process, trial and error.

Smart also has some threads on GYLOS if your a member there might be helpful to read. And they have online meetings, as well as face to face meetings too.

Sauerkraut, I am very excited to be starting this book study with you! I am working my way through Beyond Addiction and between that book and this forum, my life has completely changed.

Please let us know when you receive the book, so we can dive in!

Ive been through it and have a copy.. still working on the Beyond Addiction review for our forum.. but I will be happy to participate when I can.

Hi,
I got my copy and started reading over the weekend. That said, it was a crazy, upsetting, weekend, which didn't exactly make me optimistic about what this book or any book can help me do for my AH.

I would like to try to make sure that everyone feels free to contribute and no one dominates the discussion. One thing I do in the courses I teach is to suggest that everyone share (1) a quote that they find intriguing or confusing or in some way noteworthy and (2) a question related to the material, if they have one, for the group. Given that this book has personal resonance for us, I would imagine people might want to relate what it says to their experiences, too.

Does that sound okay? Of course these rules aren't rigid; just suggestions in the hopes that everyone feels welcome and engaged.

Oh, and does discussing a chapter per week seem reasonable?

If you all are cool with this plan, how about just clicking "thanks"? If not, please propose whatever you think will work better. Thanks--

Notes on "A Note from Bob Meyers":

I like the book's optimistic claim that CRAFT provides a method for family members to motivate their addicted loved ones to get help. Meyers points out that coercion (court-ordered treatment, etc.) doesn't have a good track record of getting people to really change their behaviors (xvi), which makes sense to me and I think is validated by the experiences of many who share their stories on SR. For example, relapses and repeated treatments seem to be common, perhaps because the person wasn't yet convinced of the need to change.

I think that's one of the places where the philosophies of AA and CRAFT really diverge, right? AA says the substance abuser will only change when s/he hits bottom, so the loved one's role is to get out of the way so that happens sooner rather than later. CRAFT says we can help before the person crashes. (This parallels the point in Beyond Addiction, that in no other illness do we assume that the person shouldn't get help until s/he is really, really sick. On the contrary, we assume that the sooner the person gets treatment, the better.)

Anyway, I'm doing what I said not to do--dominating the conversation, so I'll shut up. :)

What are you all noticing and thinking, thus far?

Personally, I'm going to look into data on the efficacy of CRAFT vs. AA, because the studies mentioned in the book so far doesn't seem all that persuasive. I'm curious to find out more.

Here's an interesting article on the efficacy of AA vs. moderation/medication for treatment of alcoholism. It's not exactly what I'm looking for, but it makes a point that I didn't know, that AA itself has been found to be lacking in data supporting claims for the program's efficacy.
Alcoholics Anonymous and addiction doctors: Are support groups or medications more effective?

I know for my H, personally, what works for him is a combo of craft and AA. Especially because I practice as much craft around the house as I can, he sort of falls right into it without even realizing.

Not wanting to get into a 12 step vs non 12 step argument, I have serious concerns about the ability to practice a 12 step program for the rest of your life without it becoming the new addiction. I've seen it with a relative, he would call his 12 step meetings his "church and bible" I believe that people have to live in the real world and need to develop coping strategies without having to constantly run back to a meeting every evening at 7pm or risk drinking again.

I'm walking a fine line here I know, and i love that craft can teach us how to change our lives and create happier, successful households. Like my H said on Facebook when quoting an article about addiction, when you make the home a happy playground, it's easier to step away from the addiction, because who doesn't like happy playgrounds?

Making the home a happy playground . . . . I like that. :)

Yet it's hard to do when there is a bully at the park. I guess gylos would say the friends/family have to make it clear that the person only gets to play if he doesn't bully.

I believe that's when you use the yellow light / red light system and disengage, not detach. I detach too well and make my H feel unloved. By disengaging he knows I still love him but we will continue the conversation later when cooler heads (and sometimes sober heads) prevail.

Our counselor has us practising that right now, in fact. If my H looks like he's "looping" or what our counselor calls "having a dry drunk episode" I'm to say, "H, I would love to discuss this with you later but right now I need some time" or "H, I am not comfortable with this right now, let's take some time for ourselves before this goes any further" And the reverse holds true also. If H is getting overwhelmed and he knows he's nearing the red light zone he can call a time out and ask for space.

Those who know the book better, please feel free to correct me if I'm getting it wrong. :) I never take offence to constructive criticism and have learned so much from everyone already!

I like your explanation, Sovery. It seems more respectful than my bully analogy. I like how your system gives both people a way to deal with the situation rather than allowing it to spiral out of control.

P.S. I detach too well, too. In fact I kind of chuckled at the GYLOS subtitle about alternatives to nagging, etc. as well as the repeated advice in "Beyond Addiction" about not yelling. I almost never nag, plead, threat, or yell. I just leave (which, for me and you both, doesn't tend to work either).

Hi ladies!

I think you nailed it Sovery! Our family counselor taught us the same approach. Especially if things get heated, or one person becomes emotional then we pause and reflect on our own emotion and do our best to evaluate the other persons emotions too (yellow light means we might be able to proceed but with caution and most likely change of direction) but red light means we need to communicate respectfully we need a time out for this particular discussion. Like the time he suggested I move to my parents shortly after we renewed our wedding vows when he was really only anxious of going back to work. Hahaha. We didnt detach, but we put that convo on hold for our meeting with the counselor.

When all of the addiction things were new to me Sauerkraut, I went through a period where I tried to evaluate some of the different self help programs out there. I wont go into detail here, but will say it never worked good to try and discuss it on the forum because all my questions sparked unhealthy debate. I did what I could on my own and then spent a session with my addiction doc and asked for it all to be explained to me. (The key I think is you must have a doctor that knows the options and who's practice doesnt revolve around one method or IMO there is obvious bias).

In Beyond Addiction we talk about ambivalence, and I see it in your posts towards Craft. I was curious I guess what about Craft has sparked your interest to learn more. And did going through Beyond Addiction book and working the exercises help you?

Sorry to go off track, but I also want to ask if you intend to try and contrast craft with what you already know about 12 step beliefs all during the book review because Im not sure we are allowed to do this on our secular family forum according to the descr. I see it not ending well based on my own past experience.

I will have to find my book. I also wanted to say the Smart family guide might also help you, its got part of craft mixed with smart but I got it at the same time I did the gylos book so thought Id mention it.

Oh, thanks for the heads-up on not contrasting 12-step with CRAFT, Blue. I didn't mean any disrespect; I'm just trying to understand both approaches and, like you say, evaluating what works best for my situation. Since it's against the rules, I'll keep those thoughts to myself. Thanks for the reminder.

I think the story of Robert Meyers is interesting and inspiring… he grew up as a child in an alcoholic home. His mother attended alanon and although he says she benefitted herself from the comfort of the program, her fondest wish was to help find a way to get her husband into treatment and lasting recovery for his addiction. She died fairly young and never knew a way to accomplish this.. and then her son grows up and admirably spends his life doing research and helping develop the CRA approach and CRAFT. Hes seen all sides in his journey.. lots of times people criticize PhD’s and professionals because they say they lack the “street smarts” having not “lived it” but he did… great story.

I also think its worth mentioning in the beginning of the discussion is that CRAFT is a two pronged approach.. it helped family members & it helps us help our loved ones .. called CSO in the book. Concerned Significant Others… its based on evidence based practices and evolves as our knowledge of science of addiction does.. I think this is a necessity myself.

Whenever I used to try and talk about CRAFT the first part of the program would get quickly overlooked because the second part received so much attention.. help your loved one? Impossible some would say.. but I think the first part of the approach deserves some attention too.. regardless of what our CSO does the family members benefit from this approach and lead happier, healthier lives. No resolve that we are sick, need a lifetime of recovery.. we just learn skills, tools, and how to better manage our emotions, cope with life and make rational decisions.

One thing I have to say is all the people Ive met who use CRAFT most lose their anger, are calm and collected… they enjoy life even if they have had to leave their CSO…

so I guess my first thought is.. for me there is no question.. work a program for me that follows evidence based treatment… things doctors and medical professional recommend.. behavioral therapies.. something that meshed with the professional therapy I was receiving.. something that changes as our knowledge of addiction and what works best evolves.. something that has been tested and has the highest success rate of helping my CSO even compared to other programs for family, something that allows me to retain all of my own personal religious beliefs and apply them to my program and decision making process as I see fit… something that will help me with all my issues, teach me skills, problem solving, and then I can just go on my way after that… live life.

I suggest researching CRA studies as well as CRAFT studies, review things from NIDA, SAMHSA on behavioral therapies, etc.

Wow Allfor, that is so true. That first part is what totally changed my thinking. I went to thinking of my Alcoholic Husband to my Husband who is an alcoholic. That's why I don't write AH or RAH anymore. I changed my thought patterns.
I also like thinking I didn't choose a sick person, and I'm not a sick person. My H started his drinking 10 years after we married, that would have made me a psychic. Lol! Instead, I think of it as we both developing tools and methods that were not in our best interests. Now we are both learning life long methods and tools for dealing with life on life's terms. :)

Double post

Wow I agree too, and how easy it is to overlook this part after you "get it". the starting point for me is how we view addiction, recovery, how we see ourselves and our partners. I dont say this disrespectfully, but there is a medical/scientific approach, understanding, view of addiction, and there is a 12 step philosophy of addiction with all its own ideas.

I was taught by my husbands addiction doctors from the beginning, and it matched the scientific/medical view of addiction.

I was never told I had a problem because I chose my husband. I did know he used drugs in college and had some serious consequences but he stopped at that point, and he never used drugs, or drank too much at any point in our relationship until this "relapse" happened.. I didnt seek out a certain type of broken person, or have a need to fix him. He is a good person, and addiction happens to good, moral, ethical people.

But the bigger part is too, my husband was never labeled for his addiction. I mean ok his brain is hyper sensitive to artificial substances that alter dopamine and other brain chemicals, so he cant manage these substances once he starts using them. Its no reflection on him as a person. He also used the substances to deal with problems in life, and it was a coping strategy but clearly not healthy. But thats about it. Hes not different, or another breed of human. And I think this is important because I see him as my husband not an addict, we are not different from each other.

Setting someone apart, and breaking their identity with a label has a very negative feel for me, and it was not something his doctors taught me. Craft doesnt do this and I find it very humanizing and respectful.

I think philosophy of craft is educational, based on fact, and provides a healing for ME all on its own.

Well said, Blue!!

I found craft... or rather, Blue found me and introduced me to craft... when I started asking questions about my involvement in H's addiction.

I was also looking for something that would give both H and I our dignity and respect for each other back, since a lot of that had been lost. This does. There is no shame or guilt attached to this method, these are good people who need help, as we all do at various times.