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Any Thoughts/Experience on/with Rational Recovery?

Old 10-24-2014, 01:56 PM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by cece1960 View Post
What happened to the RR conversation?
Buttercup and I talked about how the thread had gone off topic, but after you thanked Needabreak's post today, it appeared to us, as a mod you were giving the green light for a change in topic.
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Old 10-24-2014, 04:49 PM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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Point taken . I share some of the disappointment in government. My bad.
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Old 10-24-2014, 08:22 PM
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Hi healthyagain,
Yes, RR is very philosophically different than 12 step-based approach and in fact, the author's stance is that involvement/dependence on a group, a higher power, a day at a time, all create a very tenuous situation whereby changing conditions can cause a change in commitment to abstinence.

Another very big difference is that RR is focused solely on ending a substance addiction. It is not a design for living. It is Jack Trimpey's position that, once the addiction ends, individuals are fully capable of leading their lives thereafter however they see fit.
Another important point is that RR is secular. That doesn't mean it's only for atheists. Many very religious/spiritual people choose to use this secular approach to ending their addiction.

Lastly, RR is very controversial because of the authors stance on recoveryism. He believes that this phenomenon is as damaging to individuals and families as addiction is. I happen to agree. To a child, whether your parent is gone because they are drunk or gone because they are at meetings...they are still gone. It feels the same to a little one. I believe healing a family takes time and commitment toward the family, not away from it.
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Old 10-24-2014, 08:47 PM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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To a child, whether your parent is gone because they are drunk or gone because they are at meetings...they are still gone. It feels the same to a little one.
Follow that through and everyone should work from home, never go to the gym, church, chamber of commerce meetings or the PTA....

I think it's wonderful there are so many approaches to recovery.

I'm not wedded to any idealogy or school of thought - I';m glad that places like SR exist so I was able to get a full idea of what my options were.

I love when someone from one branch of recovery posts, simply shares their recovery... and doesn't take pot shots at the 'other side'

D
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Old 10-24-2014, 08:56 PM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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This is a portion of RR for the family.

Should we do a family intervention?

We are firmly opposed to the widespread practice of interventions, in which families conspire, often under professional guidance, to force their addicted loved ones into worthless, expensive addiction treatment programs. A typical intervention may involve a substance abuse counselor, rehab van idling outside, who conducts a tearful surprise party involving friends, family, neighbors or others who are coached to recall examples of addictive behavior. When the addicted person appears sufficiently humiliated and tearful, a family spokesperson says, "Because we all love you we want you to go right now to the treatment center." These unethical, melodramatic confrontations not only aggravate addiction and destroy bridges of reconciliation, but rarely produce secure abstinence.

Instead, we encourage the zero-tolerance ultimatum, coupled with the firm expectation of immediate, AVRT-based recovery. In this approach, the family simply confronts the addicted member with a choice between addiction and family membership. While this may seem excessive or even cruel, the zero-tolerance ultimatum is the kindest cut of all, because it presumes that the addicted one is capable of moral conduct and loyalty to the family. The family is not sending the addict away, but calling him home without his addiction. Of course, families who have long labored under the illusions of the disease concept of addiction, or who have become involved with the recovery group movement or addiction treatment programs, will find it very difficult to deliver an ultimatum to an individual they assume to be diseased, powerless, or in need of massive support and therapeutic services.

Most importantly, remember there is nothing wrong with your spouse or other loved one besides chemically-enhanced stupidity. Addiction is not a family disease. Family members are not responsible for anyone else‘s drinking, nor are they responsible for anyone else‘s abstinence. Addiction is the ultimate self-indulgence, and no family bonds, marital or parent-child, can survive addiction. Addiction is a greater betrayal of marital vows than adultery, because the pleasure of addiction exceeds the pleasure of the biological bond between a man and a woman. Marital sexual love is replaced by a stronger desire to get high with alcohol and other drugs. This is the justification for uncompromising action, the zero-tolerance ultimatum, which demands marital fidelity in the form of an explicit guarantee of perfect, lifetime abstinence.
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:40 PM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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This is very informative, Morning Glory. I must admit, I did not know much about RR's point of view until I read this. I am not sure I agree with it 100%, but there is some important truth there.

Of course the hard thing is when "the family simply confronts the addicted member with a choice between addiction and family membership" and the addict chooses addiction instead of family membership. That's a nice easy statement to write, but in reality it sums up the big gaping hole of craziness that so many of us have had to deal with in our lives because of addiction.

Thanks again for posting this.
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:47 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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That's true, Needabreak. There must be not only willingness from the A to stop but incentive. At least I've found that with my A. And then one needs to wonder about an underlying mental illness or disorder that the addiction simply masks if there are still problems.
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Old 10-25-2014, 12:03 AM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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I find Rational Recovery interesting because I do see parallels with the process our family went through. When my husband was using I got to the point of doing (in part) what RR suggest family do; directly confront the person with the expectation they can stop & will do so in order to maintain the family. I really believed thisÖ But, I didnít do it the RR way.. at the time I didnít know much about addiction and was very angry at his behaviors and I really thought he could and should just stop. So I confronted him in anger and it wasnít so much about inviting him back into the family as RR states (positive and expectant tone) ... but instead I was much more negative and threatening which elicited a very negative response from him... I would never do that again if I could go back in time. ..

I also agree confrontational interventions are not the best options Ö National Institute of Drug Abuse says non- confrontational methods work better, and this includes the Craft approach that I learned after the fact.

The other parallel I see is that while my husband used non 12 step therapy, CBT, root cause analysis.. the end goal was that he would not live a life in recovery.. but would be recovered and go back to a normal, healthy life. I see this with RR and I do agree with this. In fact, it was one of the main reasons for picking the treatment approach that we did.

I enjoy reading the RR threads also.. there is a lot of thought going into the process, and people are using it for various issues..even things like eating disorders.

Soverylost,
I think you make a very good point... I would love to hear from someone who is using RR on how this is handled. With my husband I know they addressed addiction issues and other mental health /personal issues separately - but concurrently. My husband wasn't diagnosed with any type of mental illness per say, but he worked through many issues that he felt contributed to his drug use.

I would be interested in hearing how RR addresses things ranging from depression to bipolar... I assume its being addressed; but outside of RR.
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Old 10-25-2014, 12:32 AM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by HealthyLiving View Post
When we first met, he mentioned that he "doesn't do ultimatums" and though he had somewhat tempered that along the way, I knew that change had to be up to him and I didn't want to get pulled any further into the vortex of codependency. I wrestled over and over whether to try to tell him he would have to change for me to stay, but I guess I knew in my heart he would choose alcohol...
Just wanted to share that I get the "I don't do ultimatums". If I had gotten one, or had an intervention, I would told anyone and everyone what they could do with themselves. I very well might have blown my brains out in front of them as a giant FU.

It would have had nothing to do with choosing alcohol or drugs. It would have been about being backed into a corner.
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:26 AM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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The RR approach for family's is a no non-sense approach but not sure wether it is effective or not? (Thank you for posting a great example of this approach MG!) I'm trying to think back to the times that my family used that type of approach.

I can recall two times....one was when I was staying with my parents (out of state) and I got caught red-handed by my father with my hand in my mother's pain pill bottle. It was sitting out in the bathroom calling my name. Something I really regret doing and was very ashamed...since I was raised in a strict Christian home and stealing is considered very bad....never stole before.

My father told me to give him back all the pills I took or leave the house. (Told me I better give back ALL-minus 1 or 2 because if I took more than that....I'm out of the house anyway- he knew I'd probably lie and say I took them already.) That's my father for you...he is a very strict man and doesn't take any nonsense where stealing or even drugs and alcohol are concerned...it's his way or the highway. So I gave them back except the 2 I had already taken. While I was withdrawing at his house he told me to go rest and come out when I feel better....said I should have thought of that before taking PP....not too much sympathy where drugs are concerned. It made me go along with everything while I was there...but as soon as I was back home I started back up again. So I'm wondering if that approach would work or would it only get a fake "yes mam...I quit" response along with a sneakier addict and hiding his/her use? Because, if I wasn't interested in quitting....and not getting any type of support or help then would it last? I doubt it....at least not for me and the mind-set I had at that time.

Now, much later, and after I had a huge moment of clarity, I confessed my continued use to my husband. ( he thought I had quit), he started packing his and my children's clothes...ready to walk out with the kids, I begged him to stay and promised to quit. Of course, after many "I'm going to quit! " empty promises he gave me the ultimatum of "get yourself some real help (as in go to an IOP or rehab) and give me your cell phone, driver's license, keys and bank cards. only then I will stay....and you mess up and I'm out of here...last chance...I'm thru!" Now I did follow thru with everything....did join an IOP (which helped me a lot) chose to go the sub route (never tried it before...didn't know about it). It worked for me...got me out of active addiction. I was back to being the wife/mother I was before. He and my other family members have been very supportive to me thru-out my recovery.

So I honestly, do not know how much of my recovery I owe to my being ready to quit....fed-up with pills or how much was fear of losing my husband and children?

Now, with that said, my own "I'm thru with pills! I'm sure another relapse would result in my death! Pills are not an option, next?" Type of thinking is very similar to the RR...AVRT approach. I just never put a label to my recovery method. The reason I like this approach is because, like other poster's have said, I have peace....my mind is not cluttered with using thoughts and there are no mental tug-of-wars in my mind. It's simple....I don't use pills anymore and I do not drink alcohol anymore. That chapter of my life is over...on to the next chapter. It also gives power in my hands....I'm not powerless over drugs and alcohol. I'm not that weak. I'm in control of what I put in my mouth. When I feel powerless, I feel weak...and it gives too much power to my addiction or doc. That's not to say I don't believe in a higher power because I do....very much so....but I believe he has given me the power of free-will. Kind of like "God helps those who help themselves." He has given me the strength to say "nope....I'm not going to take pills/alcohol anymore. "So I guess I should read more in that section of the forum because that most resembles my recovery method.

Now, I see soverylost brought up the issue of having a coexisting mental illness. I do suffer from anxiety and have the majority of my life. I am sure I used substances (food, alcohol, pills..certain other behaviors) to self-medicate. But, the IOP I attended worked with me to treat my anxiety...along with my substance abuse. So I believe in order for me to have control over my addiction, I needed to get my uncontrolled mental illness under control. Without that, I probably, would not have the strength to remain in recovery. But that falls into the category of my higher-power helping me by guiding me to seek out help for myself. So I'm not powerless...I have the control to make choices to seek the resources and the help to ensure I'm healthy and sober.
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Old 10-26-2014, 06:07 AM
  # 51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Needabreak
Of course the hard thing is when "the family simply confronts the addicted member with a choice between addiction and family membership" and the addict chooses addiction instead of family membership.
well yes, but you see...they are choosing addiction anyway, they are just maintaining it within the comfort of the family home.

Legna, I was the same. In fact, everyone was too scared to say anything to me for fear of what I would do. I would have withheld my children, and cut people out of my life if they had dared force my hand. It wasn't until I was legally baker-acted that the tables turned. The folks in the psych ward gave not a single feck that I don't do ultimatums. I sure tried telling them that. Apparently they were as intimidated by me as my family was.

Originally Posted by Dee74
Follow that through and everyone should work from home, never go to the gym, church, chamber of commerce meetings or the PTA....
I see your line of thinking, although I don't agree. I'm not saying a parent should never be physically separated from their children for periods of time, I'm saying that when one has work, a hobby, an interest, etc to the exclusion of the family, then it can become a problem. The gym, church, PTO function are all family oriented. In my town, there are family memberships to gyms so that families can work out together if they wish. If a family member goes to a church that the other family members are not allowed to go to because they "wouldn't understand", then I would think it odd. And PTO. Um, it's a school organization.

In some cases, people are asked to put recovery above all else. I was told to put my recovery before my children, but you see, I don't look at it in a linear fashion. Those things can and should have simultaneous focus. The "hands off my recovery" mentality creates a split in families, whereby the formerly addicted can do and say all kinds of things in the name of "working on their recovery" and if a family member objects they are labeled codependent. I don't see that as helpful in healing a family that has been ravaged by addiction.

So that was my point. Not a pot shot at all, but most people reading with a mature critical eye can see that. If I was going to take a pot shot, I would have done better than that.
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:02 AM
  # 52 (permalink)  
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The Desert Island

CleaninLI ~

Man, that's a smokin' Declaration in Paragraph 6 of your Post directly above! Well stated!

A thought that just popped into my Head reading this... Imagine the situation that any of us are stranded alone on the proverbial Desert Island. You're on one side. You know there's a Case of [formerly] favorite Liquor 'x' on the other side. Would you hike over and drink it, or not; presuming you're in good Health and sustaining yourself acceptably? 'Gilligan's Island', but with a Liquor supply. Who knows? 'Mary Ann' might float up alone on a Raft any day now.-)

Some time ago, a 'Fork in the Road' Recovery choice occurred to me. Do I internalize what it takes to recover and then move forward this thing called 'Life', and live mindfully recovered? Or, do I want to forever be handcuffed [in my Mind] to an externalized Regimen? That Regimen won't be around when I might need it most. An internalized Mindset, and firm Morals re: Drinking, are always available.

I, too, have said 'nope' forever in my ever-present Mind, as you state in Paragraph 6. Even if stranded on a Desert Island with Booze. Or, when coping with the passing of a Parent or Friend or beloved Pet.

There's a bunch of thought-provoking insights on this Thread, and a sincere thanks to all. I'm presently in a fairly remote Campsite setting, and blissfully un-Triggered no matter where I am. This Thread reiterates the benefit - to me - of Virtual Support via RR/SR alone.
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Old 01-23-2015, 04:22 PM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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My husband doesn't really know about other methods than AA and he's currently a chronic relapser. I wonder if this would be a better fit for him. He keeps saying over and over again that he just wants it all to go away. I think a "never ever again" approach might be better for him, because I think he struggles with a lot of maybes and the powerlessness that other people have talked on here.

I'm also at the point where I think I'm ready to throw the towel in. I feel for the guy but this crap is just bananas now. He is a wonderful man but this little merry go round that he is stuck on is getting really, really, really old.

For the other members who this method was successful for, did you try anything before this? I think I'm going to go meet with an attorney on Monday and get divorce papers drawn up, sit my husband down on Monday night and tell him that we've entered the lightening round of our marriage and if he drinks again I'm filing the papers otherwise he's free and clear to move back in as long as he's sober. He really is a pretty great guy when he isn't drinking (aside from the fact that he lies but that has always been there even with his drinking was manageable in the past).

For me, I want to try something different. Him relapsing and me being understanding and patient is getting a little too comfortable. I'm ready to move on from this and I know he is too. Maybe we just need to try something different from the 12 steps.
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Old 01-23-2015, 07:58 PM
  # 54 (permalink)  
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Argh!! I typed out this huge long answer and SR ate it!!! GRRRR

Stung, I did something like this without realizing it. H has been sober for three weeks and determined to be sober for life.

I'll try to type more later if sr doesn't eat it again
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Old 01-23-2015, 08:11 PM
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Oh that's recent! I did similar things in the very beginning of us realizing what was going on but I always put time limits on it. Like you need to be sober for 30 days before you can come back and he would always ALWAYS comply…then relapse. Last year he was sober from January to May and I swear it was the best our relationship has ever been. He'll go a few weeks without drinking and then relapse for a week. He went to rehab in August and then relapsed in October and can't string together much more than 30 days since then.
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Old 01-23-2015, 08:51 PM
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It is recent but unlike anything I've seen from him before. We've danced this dance for ten years. First time I've seen this from him. He is doing well and is, for the first time, out of the closet about his addiction.

The thing I think with RR is there simply is no going back for the A. That's what my H is saying without knowing the program or definition. It simply becomes a non issue or no longer an option.

I haven't put any conditions on his sobriety. We have a prevention plan in place and a sort of relapse plan - he didn't want to make one because he says he won't relapse but I kind of forced him and it's rather half-assed. But it's there lol

We are also seeing a counsellor who agrees with the methods we are using and doesn't believe in a step program. Quite a different approach, instead of just trying to manage it, we are working on the root of the problem so that H doesn't need that bandaid anymore if that makes sense. Personally I don't identify with the support 12 step program but that's just me. H does attend meetings here and there but they are not his main source of support.

There are others on here who have used versions of this method with great success. Hopefully they can help you more
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Old 01-23-2015, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by soverylost View Post
It is recent but unlike anything I've seen from him before. We've danced this dance for ten years. First time I've seen this from him. He is doing well and is, for the first time, out of the closet about his addiction.

The thing I think with RR is there simply is no going back for the A. That's what my H is saying without knowing the program or definition. It simply becomes a non issue or no longer an option.

I haven't put any conditions on his sobriety. We have a prevention plan in place and a sort of relapse plan - he didn't want to make one because he says he won't relapse but I kind of forced him and it's rather half-assed. But it's there lol

We are also seeing a counsellor who agrees with the methods we are using and doesn't believe in a step program. Quite a different approach, instead of just trying to manage it, we are working on the root of the problem so that H doesn't need that bandaid anymore if that makes sense. Personally I don't identify with the support 12 step program but that's just me. H does attend meetings here and there but they are not his main source of support.

There are others on here who have used versions of this method with great success. Hopefully they can help you more
The thing I think with RR is there simply is no going back for the A. That's what my H is saying without knowing the program or definition. It simply becomes a non issue or no longer an option.

^^ this.. feel the same about my husband, because he doesn't formally use the RR approach it was all done through his therapy but same concept.. although we too have relapse plans..

You made me laugh though.. "he didn't want to make one because he says he won't relapse but I kind of forced him and it's rather half-assed. But it's there lol"
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Old 01-24-2015, 12:01 PM
  # 58 (permalink)  
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Where are the tinfoil hats? I feel like this too but Im also confused.

One of the things about my husband past drug use is it was defined as binge using. He starts off slowly I guess thinking he can control it, but then it escalates quickly and he cant moderate, or stop. His doctor made it clear the danger he faces if he uses again, and so he works under the same idea you've all said, he's capable of quitting and hes done. (But the dr still made us do relapse plans and stuff).

I think his outlook is like that of rational recovery, where he has power and control. But if Im understanding it right then if he relapses Im supposed to leave him? I cant put that out there, I dont want to. I might be forced to leave him I understand this, but I still feel like a relapse can be part of the process. What also worries me is how my husband is so hard on himself. Would he feel a great failure if he did relapse and it would make it even worse?
I guess I should read more to understand, is it the zero tolerance policy, or the part where he knows he has power to quit forever and doesnt have to live in fear? Which is the core of RR? The second part I agree with, but the first one is scary for me right now.
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Old 01-24-2015, 12:27 PM
  # 59 (permalink)  
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RR is not meant for trying to quit. It's about quitting. Getting to the mindset of "I don't drink, ever!"

A large part of it is taking personal responsibility, but there is certainly much more to it. I'd recommend reading the book "Rational Recovery" start to finish. Just taking bits and pieces may not be as helpful as actually taking the entire program into consideration.

Personally, I think it's a great way to get out of the "sober up, relapse, sober up, relapse" trap.
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Old 01-25-2015, 11:04 AM
  # 60 (permalink)  
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Thanks SDH. I will add the book to my list, and do so e reading on the Rational Recovery thread too. Your right, like most things this is something a person has to understand in full not take a bit of it. I think I do grasp whats most important is what goes on inside the mind.

Thanks for posting here, appreciate it.

If you have any other book suggestions, i really do like to read and learn so please share here anytime ok.
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