FireSprite

Just a thought but seeing how men are (typically, not making an assumption about ALL men here ) less comfortable with communicating their emotions...

I can understand with his background how your husband feels like he has great understanding of the logistics of your addiction, and that is a great asset but can also work against him as a liability. Understanding it doesn't mean he has dealt with it emotionally, kwim? The rational side of what drives addiction, feeds it, how it changes the person affected & those around them is all very logical but the way we feel about it ISN'T. So he may understand, but still have a lot of stuffed emotions deeply rooted to work through in order to really heal himself whether he realizes it or not.

IMO, that's part of what has to heal in order for him to be able to move forward with rebuilding trust in his mind... just dropping all the logic & dealing ONLY from an emotional POV, even just a little at a time until he lets it all "out".

Maybe. Like I said- it's just a shot in the dark.

FireSprite

The first thing I want to point out is that while similar, there are some big differences in my situation vs. your daughter. My father was an addict before I was ever born, it isn't something that developed over my lifetime. She is dealing with addiction through her mother which can impact girls differently. She has more siblings than I do (just 1 sister) and it sounds like they are a bit further apart in age (sis & I are just 3 yrs apart so we were close enough in age to feel a lot of sibling rivalry day-to-day). My AF achieved sobriety & then cancer took him 5 short yrs later so we (me, mom, sis) moved from one dysfunctional dynamic to another. The roles we had developed during the years of dealing with addiction became cemented/permanent after his death.

I would highly suggest reading "Perfect Daughters" by Robert Ackerman if you haven't already. What I loved about this book is that it differentiates how girls manifest their dysfunction related to growing up with an addict parent depending on whether it is their mother or father, whether they were born into it or watched it develop during their childhood.

I only found this book on the suggestion of someone here at SR last year & I seriously openly wept every 3-4 pages because it kept ringing true for me in ways I didn't even realize were part of my damage. Things I thought were my personality traits, things I though of as strengths, really were often part of tools I developed in order to SURVIVE and because they were necessary for my role of Caretaker in my FOO. Not at all the same once I thought of it in terms of how much was a choice I consciously made to have certain character traits & how much was forced out of necessity.

As far as my issues with my sister, it's something I have only become aware of/trying to correct over the last year or so. So a lot of it is new to me and I'm still learning as situations arise.

So like I said, addiction existed in our family before my sister & I did. I am the eldest & any time the need arose, I was in charge of my sister so over time I developed this idea that I WAS my Sister's Keeper. Since I had the responsibility of helping her clean up after her messes, I eventually wanted to minimize those issues to give myself less to deal with. So I just took over, trying to keep tight control on her, flat-out telling her what to do in many situations.

That created a power struggle between us & eventually she learned that she could deal with her resentments (having to answer to her Sister older by only 3 yrs as though she were her parent), by making things harder for me. If she skipped chores, I got in as much trouble as her because I was "in charge" but in reality I had no way of enforcing that either except to either threaten her or just assume the responsibility myself. Either way resentments bred on both sides. We fought a LOT. I was still growing myself & just didn't have the life experience to be a mother figure for someone so close to my own age.

As an adult I stepped back & wondered did I LOVE her? Or did I just feel obligated & responsible FOR her? I didn't really know what the difference between those 2 things was.... didn't I SHOW love by handling the responsibilities that went with it?

When she had a problem - her ex not paying support, her car breaks down, her sitter cancels, whatever - I approached it as though it was MY problem. If I couldn't fix it, I would have the most enormous sense of failure. I would break plans, arrange my life & responsibilities around hers making sure I juggled it so no balls ever dropped. I was able to keep up with it for a long time since I had no children of my own until I was 30 - oodles of "free" time to practically raise my niece, and run from crisis to crisis in my sister's life.

If I refuse to help (because it's not my place or something I simply can't do) then my gut instincts would scream at me that I was choosing to be selfish & that made me a bad person. I would lose sleep at night trying to find solutions for problems I could not control - she continued to step in the same messes, and approach me passive-aggressively with every problem AND solution. And she could never see her involvement in any of it - it was all on ME because everything on my side was actionable & everything on her side was much less obvious. She could always step back & accuse, "I never ASKED you to help!" but the pass/aggress way she went about it was the same difference.


I also could NOT tell her "No." Ever. To me that meant that I was acting selfishly by putting my needs ahead of hers. It takes a lot of effort to just listen to her & not offer up solutions (but gets easier over time). It also forces her to verbalize when she DOES need help which is difficult for her & helped her to see her part in it.

When I first stopped this behavior, there was such a push-back from her & my mother both.... it was like I had changed the dance steps & they kept falling over themselves trying to keep up. At first it was easy for them to point the finger at me for creating the change in routine but when push came to shove neither of them could offer me any reason why things were healthy as they were or that I was wrong for essentially putting my own needs first in my own life. I was sick of having to be the controller or the family - organizing every family holiday, event, etc. When I removed myself from the driver's seat the car flew right off the road because no one knew how to make their own decisions after being told what to do for so long.

Actually, my mom just out & out snapped & had no choice but to seek therapy (not just for this, she had a lot of unresolved issues she had never faced, this was just part of it for her).

Sorry - I know this is very long & confusing. I am right in the middle of separating this all in my mind & it's hard to translate a lot of it into words.

allforcnm

That was a great post Firesprite. I know it was meant for the OP but it really made me think about family dynamics.

allforcnm

I was trying to reply to you last night, but I started getting foggy brain. Long story but oh the joy of having to clean your oven after working all day, and getting the little one to bed. Anyway...

Thank you for explaining your feelings with that detail. I wonder... I think this may be what my husband is experiencing right now. He will be coming up on two years in April and he has been reminiscing a lot these last couple months and recalling where he was, how he felt 2 years ago at this time when he was still using. Then contrasting it to where he is now, and saying how he never wants to go back to that again. Me neither !

I do wonder if I minimize it sometimes when HE may have a need to explore it more deeply WITH ME? Maybe he is thinking I don't want to talk to him ? I sort of thought the whole addiction experience was such an emotional trauma to him that he just talks about it to continue his own healing- but maybe he is using the past more to motivate himself & his recovery than I realize? He still works with a therapist monthly, and we talked so much about "things" that first year, to me it was almost as if there is nothing more to say, Ive accepted it all, forgave him, forgave myself also for my mistakes and shortcomings... but I think I will engage him in conversation a little more next time he brings something up from the past.

I think time is your best friend in working through the resentments and pain. Also trying to reconnect, remember what brought you together in the first place, looking at all you have including your wonderful children, and combined dreams for the future. I also suggest being honest with him if things are bothering you. He might be more than willing to discuss it if he understood the importance it has to you / recovery, and the relationship.

Make a date with him. ... Plan it first, that is half the fun. And by the way isn't Valentines Day coming up soon? Doesn't have to be elaborate, just fun where you can reconnect.

Im really glad you made this post, it has me thinkin'

cleaninLI

Bc thank you for this! Your shares are always so honest and really give me much needed insight into my husband's unexpressed thoughts and feelings. You are absolutely spot on that my husband doesn't have anyone he feels comfortable talking to. He has always held the belief that family problems stay in the family. I'm not sure if this has something to do with the way he was raised, his own dysfunctional childhood. I do know that his mother and father divorced when he was very young. He was raised, primarily, by his aunt and uncle. His mother did remarry and later had 5 more children. I always felt that he had some deep resentments, maybe feelings of abandonment, like he was cast-off from the family. He rarely talks about his childhood....in fact they aren't close. He said he always found solace in books and his artwork. He is real big on academic pursuits, probably why he's so educated. He is also a real talented artist.....spends most of his leisure time drawing/painting.

He has complained to me that I have my "soberRecovery" and my "women friends" and all he has is his blank canvas. I've reminded him that he does have friends....problem is they are not the type of friends that he could confide in about family problems. They are more like professional friendships or friends from his college days. The thing is I doubt he'd confide in anyone, anyway. He is real close to me and to his children though.
You know what? I think I will try to put aside some time for the two of us to talk more, preferably on the weekend maybe at night after the kids go to sleep. I'm going to start giving him my undivided attention. It's true after 25 years of marriage and 4 kids later we don't talk and share the way we used to and I think he's missing those talks. It wouldn't surprise me if that small amount of one to one attention wouldn't shake him out of his depression. I'll give it a try and let you know what happens.

Oh btw, you're right about the avatar! I wanted to put a picture of a lighthouse (I love lighthouses and have several replicas in my home) but I couldn't find one. What's your excuse?

cleaninLI

Firesprite thanks again! Wow, you really have my brain spinning now! I wanted to write back to you right away, but with a house full of kids, it was impossible to sit down and write it all out. I appreciate your patience, sorry it took so long.

Why didn't I think of that? Hmm. That must be true , my husband is able to think logically, but that certainly does not take away all his pent-up feelings and emotions. Lets face it this man has been deeply hurt! For some unknown reason does not come out and say it, but it doesn't mean it isn't there.

I think, like I mentioned to BC I will have to set-up more time for "just the two of us" a time when he can get comfortable and be able to express himself. I will try to make it "his safe time and place" where he knows he can speak freely and that I will listen and understand. Because, I know my husband will not seek therapy. He has had a few sessions at my IOP, but he was mostly doing it for me. He probably has some old-fashioned idea about only weak or crazy people needing therapy. Well, he's also hesitant to spend any money on himself. You have no idea what I go through getting him to buy himself anything especially clothes. He'll, spend everything he has on me or the kids but not on himself.....except books or art supplies.

Your post was not confusing at all. In fact, it was very easy to understand and explained the commonalities as well as the differences between your childhood experiences and my daughter's. You are right that your age, age between you and your sister as well as addiction being a part of your family dynamic from the time you were born played a large part in how you were effected. Not only that but the fact that your father died shortly thereafter cementing your role.

It makes sense that your role carried you through to adulthood. It must have been extremely hard to separate your love for your sister with the belief that you were totally responsible for her and that her problems were yours to fix. I can relate to you as a mother of my own children and my need to make it all better. It's like their good and bad behaviors are a reflection of me and my parenting skills. Since you truly were as you said "your sister's keeper" whatever mess she made in her adult life, you felt it was yours to clean-up.

Makes perfect sense and so very sad that you really couldn't focus on your own life because you were so tuned in to your sister's. I can see where it inhibited your own growth as well as being able to develop your own identity. I mean, how could you envision your own dreams and aspirations if you were so enmeshed in that of your sister's?

I can see where that would create so many conflicts between the two of you. Your sister probably leaned on you for so much, that she never learned how to live her own life. Probably why she kept making the same mistakes over and over again....and never learned from them.

You are right about the resentment your sister may have had for you too. The fact that she was only 3 years older than you, but had to listen and obey. I can see your point as well, that you would be punished if she didn't do something right, so you really had no choice but to make her do it right or do it yourself!

I do know that it helps that my daughter was 17/ 18 when my addiction began. She was for the most part grown-up. The thing is my daughter was not a very mature 17 year old so I know it wasn't easy and not something she was used to doing. In fact, she was the "baby" of the family until she was 12 and her brother was born. She didn't grow-up with kids....so she learned pretty fast. She was also very close to me and probably felt a profound loss of her mother when I became so fixated on the drugs. But I do think it was much harder for you.

I guess my biggest fear is that she is kind of stuck in her growth. I guess what I mean is that she's 23 and she has never dated. Does not have much interest in dating or thinking about her future....having her own family some day. She does think about her career though and is almost ready to graduate. She rarely goes out except to class and once in while to hang out with friends. Go to the mall or a movie....sometimes lunch or dinner. Maybe someone's birthday party. Otherwise she is very happy to stay in the house and play with her brother and sister. Do you think that's odd? Am I making this into something it's not?

Thank you for the book recommendation! I'm going to read it....perhaps my daughter would like to also.

Congrats on your own recovery! It looks like you've come along way....I'm sure it hasn't been easy either. It's so hard to change old patterns. I'm sure you met with huge resistance from your Mom and sister.

Thank you so much for explaining that to me!

DecBaby

WOW! What an incredible thread to read!

Clean thank you for starting it and sharing so much and thank you to everyone who replied.

This has helped me so much with my own situation. I'm not going to make this about me so I just wanted to say thank you for helping me realize what I need to address next in my recovery and my kids.

cleaninLI

Yes allforcmn I'm going to plan something special for us this Valentine's Day. It's been awhile.....a looong while since we did something special, just the two of us!

It could be that your husband is working through something....maybe a craving or feelings of guilt.....fear of dealing with a problem or stress without escaping into drugs. I would say that's probably the type of things that come up later in recovery.

In the beginning its more about breaking the habit or coping day in and day out without it or mourning the loss........later it's more about feelings of regret or guilt.....sometimes fear of relapsing....even something as simple as waking up from a crazy drug dream (pretty common btw) can make us feel unsteady....bring back fears and regret. There are certain movies I can't watch anymore without getting anxious....strange but true.

Decbaby I'm glad this thread helped you, it is pretty emotional. I know exactly how you feel....we are addicts and its true during active addiction we don't feel all these emotions....the emotions that we need to feel to empathize with our loved ones. The addiction keeps us away from feeling much of anything. Our brain focuses on one thing.....the drug....how much we have....how we can get more. But their is a human being underneath it all...take away the drug and we are back.......along with our very real thoughts and feelings.......all the regrets and guilt.....it's not easy to handle those when we were so used to numbing them out. In fact that is probably one of the major contributors to a relapse.

It's my opinion, especially after reading all these responses from people on the other side of the coin that its very clear that we have hurt our loved ones.....hurt them very deeply. So I think its only fair that we recognize that fact and do everything and anything to help them recover. Sure we need to recover but so do they!

Please feel free if you want to share your experiences as well...if and when you are comfortable. I understand that it isn't easy.

BlueChair

Your husband sounds like mine ! Into all their professional stuff, have friends but not the touchy feeling type of men friends. I wont edit that but its sounds a little off, made me laugh so it stays. Im feeling down will take any smiles I can get today. Back to you: sometimes I think men have a harder time expressing their feelings because stereotypes men are supposed to be strong and not have feelings. But when they get married they find that one person they feel comfortable sharing with, trust, can expose their souls to. If thats been you, and then you were sick, and he didnt have anyone for him during that time it would be lonely and Im sure he's missed you.

25 years is silver and all the upcoming years are filled with jewels. We are still way back in the fruit flowers and wood, before long wool will be coming up. What do you do for wool? Do I give him a wool coat or a sheep? buy a farm and fill it with sheep? You guys are lucky to be past all that confusion plus if you start over it will be again at paper.

Yesterday when we were at the hospital I thought about walking over and looking for that blue chair I used to sit in when he was in the ICU side, but I didnt have the courage, was afraid Id come back crying. I will have to look for a different blue chair for my avatar or wait until the next time.

Chino

I've thought a lot about this question. Most replies here are about significant others but my qualifier is my daughter. Still, I want to share what works for us:

We've forgiven each other and we don't pile on. We contribute nothing negative to our relationship. It's like we declared a cease fire, a truce. We both surrendered.

L0stH0pe

i wish my AH would ask me what he can do to make things right between us... he has this "well im taking the subutex now so im controlled you SHOULD be happy".. i dont think he realises just how much damage he has caused.

Even though he sat in my psychiatrists office with me the other day when i completely broke down and stated that i was literally going insane and couldnt tell fact from fiction any more. He is still very much in denial that he has broken trust and that i dont believe his words anymore.. i need to now see actions.

Its gotten a little easier this last week, though im back to day 3 of not sleeping and im getting all paranoid about him "running out, phone in hand, not telling me where he is going" .. hes back home now and no sign of him being drunk/having popped any pills/smoked any weed but who knows, i may be missing the early sign of that one beer, that invariably turn into an 8 pack and then a 16 pack... but im too tired today to worry and obsess too much.

Some days i feel better about our marriage being saved than others.. with us its the other way around, he is the lovy dovy doo kind and im more pragmatic and down to earth, showing in little ways i love him, like making him a coffee/buying a favourite food/hanging out with him... i guess its going to take time for me to trust him with "me" again, and at the moment i rather err on the side of caution than be hurt like i was in the past.. i rather choose to NOT believe him until i see hard evidence that he is telling the truth.

It breaks my heart because he used to be my best friend, ive told him stuff ive told noone else and he went and betrayed for years, that kind of has shaken my core belief in him and i dont think hell ever be able to "fix" that part of me, ill never be vulnerable in front of him again, i wont give him any more ammunition or put unwarranted trust in him.

The kids, they kind of dont want much to do with him, but that is more because he makes me sad and cry and they dont forgive him for that. They see how he is hurting their mum and especially my boys are very protective of me as their bio dad was very violent and nearly killed me three times and broke just about every single bone in my body over the course of our relationship. AH has hit me three times now, each time he was high on coke and or opiates (yeah i thought they mellowed you out but in his case he must have had a weird combination of booze and opiates or been on withdrawal or something) either way it came totally out of the blue and he doesnt even recall doing it, even though he knocked me out the last time.

There is so much stuff im blocking out, but that is an age old coping mechanism of mine and has served me for a long time now... not ideal, i know but maybe its for the best and will allow me to eventually forgive and move on.