KhmuNation

AAPJ what got me sober was I had a heroin overdose and suffered from a compression injury to my right arm called neuropraxia as I had laid down without moving for 36 hours.

Neuropraxia is an incredibly painful nerve injury that left my right arm dangling without any movement. It was so painful my doctor even prescribed me with Oramorph (oral morphine) despite knowing I was a junkie. (I didn't take it.)

I ended up back at my elderly parents house in the middle of nowhere for 8 months with no money, no welfare, no nearby friends, no way of getting around as I couldn't drive and no local 'connections'.

I did 4 to 6 hours of physio and exercises every day. During this period I got clean and got some distance between myself and my addiction. I also witnessed up close the huge stress I had caused and was still causing my parents. (This injury had come after 20 years of addiction, the last 4 of which were carnage - 3 rehabs, prison in Thailand and being sectioned twice in a mental health facility.)

When I was finally fit enough to resume my life I felt a complete new start was required. I had been going to meetings during this period and told my sponsor in NA I intended to do a 'geographical' - I was told this idea was tried and tested and destined for failure unless I addressed the very core of my addiction and looked at my resentments and made amends and worked the steps etc.

I felt this wasn't necessary. I didn't, and don't, have any resentments and I felt constantly examining my motives was counter productive to leading a normal, responsible, content and spontaneous life - which was my aim.

So, against the advice of my sponsor, I did my 'geographical'. I went somewhere completely new, in a new job and did a total 'do over' and broke contact with many people. I initially kept in touch with my sponsor but he eventually turned on me as he said my program was weak and that I wasn't following his advice and as an old timer he knew I would fail. He even emailed this to me in capitals. YOU WILL FAIL. And I thought this guy was meant to be supporting me?!

So I attended meetings where I am now but, as before, I felt dragged down by the meetings and would leave feeling stressed out - annoyed by much of the ethos of the 12 step program along with the infuriated by the many assumptions 'old timers' made about me and other newbies.

I was told constantly I was on the brink of relapse by people who barely knew me and weren't even aware of what my substance of choice I was. I was also told I wasn't committed to the program and that I was doomed to failure without an HP in my life. The HP was described to me as being like the wet bit of the ocean in terms of recovery. Crucial. Yet I have never been, and am still not, religious or spiritual.

I also had issues with the key rings and the old timer thing - doesn't time served contradict the Just For Today ethos? Some old timer even did a share on the importance of anonymity while wearing an NA baseball cap and a t **** with the AA logo reading HUG LIFE. I mean, HUH?! No I don't want a keyring with NA on it thank you very much and no being clean for 6 months is not worthy of applause and celebration.

I also didn't like having to introduce myself as an addict (or alcoholic, I was told I couldn't say addict at an AA meeting even though I am not and have never been an alcoholic - there isn't NA where I am so I had to say My name is......I am an alcoholic). But I WAS an addict;I am not now. Saying you still are is like saying hi my name is Bob I am ten years old when Bob is 58. He was 10, he isnt now. Its a way of keeping people coming. Keep coming back! as the old timers would say at the end of each meeting. (Hotel California vibes here)

I also didn't like the cliqueness, the strangely smug 'stick with the winners' attitude of devotees as though being some drug addicted alcoholic ******* for 2 decades was a sign of personality or something. These dudes thought they were awesome., above and beyond your regular person.

Also I didn't like how incredibly prescriptive the 12 step program is. If you work it you will remain sober and if you relapse - well that's your fault and you didn't do the program properly. I mean, what?

The whole thing was like a cult and is based on the Christian fundamentalist rules of The Oxford Group from over 100 years ago. Its very dated and preserved in aspic.

I didn't want to live like this, 3 times a week having to be forced to examine my addiction in meetings whilst listening to others talk about their struggles or brag about their using or there sobriety. So many seemed to talk the talk but not walk the walk. In any group there are cliques, gossip etc and 12 step is no different.

In my new city and country I was mostly happy and I realized it was the meetings themselves that were the biggest threat to my sobriety!

So I stopped going.

Since then I have achieved all the things I hoped for in sobriety. Inner peace, contentment, living within my means, holding down a job and a relationship, keeping fit and living a simple day to day life and making my parents feel happy.

Addiction begins, and ends with a choice. It is NOT a disease. You don't chose to get cancer and then chose not to have cancer. Consequently I am absolutely not powerless over this thing.

I am powerful and so are you.

Through self determinism, responsibility, desire and choice I am now clean. No help from the HP. No handing things over to the HP. I don't have an HP. I haven't done the steps. I don't go to meetings. I don't have a daily gratitude list. I don't mix in circles of sober people. I don't dig up my past and get upset about things that happened to me 40 years ago.

All I now do is live like AN ADULT - and if one thing all addicts are it is totally juvenile. (As is the 12 step thing) I have accepted my flaws, my mistakes and my lot in life. And I am very content.

If I can do it anyone can. Its far more simple than it is made out to be once you get over the physical addiction.

I, YOU,HE, SHE. WE CAN DO THIS!

KhmuNation

I should add that at one meeting I expressed my doubts about the 12 step program and some 'old timer' screamed at me "YOUVE BEEN SOBER 5 MINUTES BOY! IF YOU DONT WORK IT YOU WILL RELAPSE!" (Yes he called me boy - despite being 48)

This guy was 25 years 'clean and serene' as he constantly told everyone, yet he was 65 and looked 85, overweight to the point of barely being able to walk upstairs without huffing and puffing, constantly sucking on his vape pipe and seemed to be a professional sharer in that he flew all over the world giving shares at meetings and conferences. His shares are on the internet - and he would often say in his big booming bully boy voice:

IM A CELEBRITY IN AN ANONYMOUS PROGRAM HA HA HA.

It was just one big ego ride for him. He lives in LA, although is English, and would also brag about 'my friend, an Oscar winning actress,...' or 'one person I sponsor, a major TV star...'

He just seemed the personification of all that's wrong with the program and his shares were epic faux stand up comedy routines where he would rant and rave and vent and shout. Yet people literally hung of his every word and treated him like some cult leader like Jim Jones or David Koresh.

Another guy that ran a rehab in Thailand I attended preached to me about spirituality getting me to mediate all the time whilst bragging about his famous aa mates - that fool Pete Doherty was one of his buddies along with a few other pop stars.

He also conned me out of $5000 and has refused to reply to my emails even one I sent as 'an amends' He also conned some aussie girl out of $15000 when I stayed with him. He was just star struck.

Finally when I stopped attending meetings where I am now I got a Whatsapp from a member saying he had heard I had relapsed and wanted to come and see me and perhaps stage an intervention. He talked about my addiction on Whatsapp, something that could be read by others if I had left my phone lying about and anyway - I hadn't relapsed!

This tale had been invented by this psycho Big Book militant (18 years sober) who I assume was pissed because I had stopped going. I live in a small town and didn't need this stress. I have a responsible job and don't want my employers knowing about my past.

Also the old timers at this meeting told me I must tell my new girlfriend I am an addict. But I was an addict. And why would I want to upset my girlfriend (who is now my wife and mother of my first child) telling her about something that has no relevance to our current life? She still doesn't know and I hope she never has to know. There is no need.

12 step is prescriptive, militant, born again nonsense. Yes there are good things in the program - but these things are logical. The HP stuff abandons logic, as does all the rules.

Sobriety is achievable for all. Make the choice. Move on.

Cosima11

Well.. that's quiet the share!

Candidly I'd have to say I agree with a lot of your points. I found it interesting how in your original "12 reasons why" post you touched on themes that appear in both AA and AVRT (supporting my theory that they are basically opposite but mirror images of one another).

While I think recovery language and slogans can be useful for a time but can only take us so far.. I'm now also delving deeper into therapy surrounding inner child work, and comparisons of the HP concept and our literal parents have definitely come up. So while I agree with a lot of what you've said, I think there's a way to be an adult for all practical intents and purposes, while still also honoring and acknowledging our inner child (as my avatar indicates).. AA and/or Christianity are not my first choice for embracing "juvenile" beliefs or power hierarchies, but who am I to judge those who find solace in them..

Fusion

I was an AA follower for years, but despite trying hard to believe in the process and a spiritual HP, I never achieved the ability to stay sober. After I left AA and achieved sobriety via other methods, I realised that AA was never a good fit for me, because I wasn't drinking because of an over inflated/deflated ego, resentments, frustration over being unable to control people and events, and powerlessness over the arm that raised the alcohol container to my lips.

Also, I am naturally an introvert and meetings created stress, which led to more drinking thoughts. Plus, I am self-reliant and it seemed foreign to pass the reins of control over my drinking, to an outside sponsor and group. Obviously there's a rider here, because many people say they've achieved great success and alcohol and emotional sobriety via AA.

I was drinking because I was addicted, due to discrete parts of my brain learning that alcohol would cause me to feel better, in that moment, irrationally, because later that day or the following day, I felt worse. It was instant gratification, without consideration for my future welfare. A flaw in the human brain learning mechanism, as it were.

So I learnt that I have free-will, a separate mind that witnesses the instant gratification alcohol seeking thoughts being emitted from my brain, which I call my AV (Addict/Addictive Voice).

Meditation and Mindfulness helped me to focus and notice these AV thoughts as they arose, so they could be dismissed at an early stage, when they were weak. Instead of later, when they grew stronger, were harder to resist and caused a battle between my brain's craving for a drink and my mind's wish to abstain. I also researched neuroplasticity and addiction, which gave me belief that I had the power to stop drinking.

Through this practice, research and learning process, I no longer drink, and am also achieving internal control of my thoughts and feelings; emotional sobriety. The thoughts and feelings will always arise, so long as I'm alive, it's what brain's do, but I don't have to respond to them like an automaton.

Obviously, some habitual thoughts, feelings and beliefs (arising from past events) required some untangling in order to lessen their occurrence, I didn't attend therapy to do so, I watched YouTube therapist's videos on the issues I'd identified via Mindfulness and Meditation, they were enlightening.

AAPJ

Khmu - Thanks for the reply. My experience in both using and recovery is different than yours but certainly contains common elements. In my AA circle of recovery I certainly see what might be called recovery a-holes but most folks are pleasant and pretty good to be around. I am sorry your experience was so much more negative.

I hope you are able to stay sober and happy going forward. A thought for your consideration. For some AA enthusiasts there is only one path to recovery - AA and the 12 steps. All other recovery methods are vastly inferior and will lead to failure. They usually will not say this directly but it radiates from their overall behavior. So want to get even so to speak? Then stay sober and happy. Nothing makes them more uncomfortable than someone who succeeds in recovery w/o their sacred program.

I am not saying this to in any way discredit the AA program. Personally, I like it and it helps me a lot. I also think that the AA only extremists are not practicing what I consider to be the right way of the program. To me it's a program of attraction.

I am happy for anyone who finds recovery no matter what path they choose. But in the end most paths to recovery require a fair amount work and change. There's no free lunch.

August252015

Lots of lengthy and thought-out posts.

Imma bring it back to today and ask how ya doing jd?

Fusion

This is why I posted for the OP. When I left AA, it was a truly frightening period. I was directly told by many...well, you can imagine the dire predictions, I didn't want to be one of the 'constitutionally incapable'.

But deep down, I knew I was flogging a dead horse, I'd tried, and tried, without success, I needed something else. Yet, at the same time, I was petrified of leaving, because of the predictors of doom. I took solace in the fact that the Big Book states that there are other ways. BillW was a wise man, as was his inspiration, William James, whom I believe was the first person to unwittingly mention brain malleability and neuroplasticity, before they were discovered.

Ken33xx

My experience in AA over the years has been positive. In fact joining AA and getting sober is the best thing that happened to me as an adult.

Having said that... there are members some with decades of sobriety who are bad news. And meetings that give off a cult-like vibe.

But it was always this individual or that meeting.

Not AA as a whole.

When I was new there was an AA big book thumper who made it clear the gutter was waiting unless I did things his way. Which meant letting him become my sponsor.

To be blunt even new in AA I could sense this guy was damaged goods. I wanted nothing to do with him and the same applied to a few others. So, I stayed away. Didn't argue. Just never called them.

On the other hand there were those who had a better read on me. They could see attraction rather than tooting their own horn or quoting the BB was a more effective approach.

AA members/meetings are mixed bag to be sure. Yet it's free and readily available. Take what you need and leave the rest.

DriGuy

I have met many people in AA who are friendly, cheerful, solid in their recovery, and inspiring. I have also met many who are the exact opposite, and they can taint the overall experience. I even knew one as bad as your example (he ended up committing suicide).

Aside from the people, the program itself can be infuriatingly annoying especially if you lack any belief in the supernatural world of spirits and unseen higher powers, and when members would start on that, or when I would read about it in the big book, I often felt like my head would explode. I'm a convert. I once believed in the unseen and unknowable, but I no longer hold such beliefs. What is AA trying to sell? The quick answer will undoubtedly be, "Sobriety." The real answer would be, "An unscientific philosophical approach that may help you toward sobriety." Any guarantees that it will work for everyone cannot be supported empirically.

I don't know of many absolute truths, but I do know a very few things that are true. I know that I no longer believe in unseen beings, spirits, or the supernatural. This is not to say such things don't exist. But the truth is that I have seen zero compelling evidence of their existence. So putting my life in the hands of the unseen is not going to happen, and when they say that your higher power can also be a tree or a doorknob, it can be even more insulting to one's intelligence.

My advice to you is to get over it. That's advice only, but I offer it with the best of friendly intentions. You do yourself no favors trying to swim against such a current. It will eat you up inside. Flow along with it because the reality is that current is there, even if it may be flawed chaos, but steer yourself down your own most productive path, which you seem to be doing quite well.

I went to AA for one thing. I wanted to get sober, and in my small town way back when, it was the only game available. I stayed in AA for years because I liked the people, well, at least the friendly inspiring ones who were not constantly evangelizing about magic. I tapped them for useful information that crossed the boundaries of philosophy and were common to all avenues of recovery. I found this helpful. The program itself, I looked at, but incorporated only a few things from it into my own program. AA is not for everyone, most definitely not.

You may not need the people like I did. Many do it on their own. Knowing what I know now, I could do it on my own, but 25 years ago, I don't think I knew that.

The SR philosophy here is all encompassing. The focus is on sobriety any way you can get to it, religious, secular, faith based, or rational, and SR is loaded with people who did not go the AA route. One other thing that I know as a truth is that I have come to believe resentments are self destructive. Let them go, including resentments toward the AA program. You don't have to buy it, but certainly do not resent it, if for no other reason than your own peace of mind and contentment. I'm happy you are here.

JdA23

"Please Keep Shares to a 2 Minute Minimum"
ha! Im kidding but yeah there are some great thorough responses, which goes to show why everyone's experience is different. Today is a great day.
Although I haven't drank since Oct 16, 2018, I joined AA on February 28, 2019 so today is my(would be) official 1 year anniversary. My next step is learning how to forget the time stamp, I feel that keeps me living in the past. Not an easy thing to do but i am proud that I made it this far. At least there is a date I can identify with, at least to show others it is possible.

August252015

BWHAHAHA! Jd you are welcome in any meeting I got to anytime

Glad to hear your update and one-year-ness! Proud of you for continuing on and finding a path that is working for you.

KhmuNation

Yes there are good aspects of the 12 step program and many well meaning and well adjusted people. The majority. But, like with all groups and any gathering of people whether than be work or social, there are some extremely toxic people. This is higher in aa and na than, say, the bowls club.

Due to the open table share format the toxic ones often take center stage at meetings and fill them with their poison.

12 step does have an important role and did help me on the road to sobriety. I frequented meetings for the first 18 months of getting clean - much of which I relapsed constantly.

When I did get clean and remain clean I distanced myself and ultimately abandoned it due to toxic members, constantly having to dredge up my past, the higher power thing, my lack of resentments and it was just time for me to fully move on in life

davaidavai

I am doing AA wrong when I buy in too deep to certain aspects of AA. Like the 'tribe'. I am amazed when people say that. 'An then I found my tribe!" What am I missing? And not through lack of trying. I just can't take the lack of reciprocation anymore. Even when it seems there, it's not. But it's bad when I buy in and go looking for real community. No, this is AA. It's like the bare bones of community, and the people are often more inhibited, traumatized and conceited than normal. But there is something to be said for AA when there is nothing else. But the nothingelseness is my achilles heal: I buy into the platitudes. I go looking for a cure to my loneliness in the rooms. I'm like the dweeb that can't cut it with the cool messed up kids smoking in the back alley. The 'tribe.'

Then, the other thing, is when I start to conform to the before and after story. It's practically impossible not to. I can disappoint myself with my own dishonesty at times, my own penchant for following the script. And after those moments I usually feel duped. I'm not even in the tribe, but I'm trying damn hard to belong.

The steps are fine, the sponsor is fine. I think most of what bothers me about AA are the additions. The tribe. The squirrely weirdos. It's like an obsticale course. No, don't think you're friends with that guy just because you've known him over a year. No, don't talk to that woman. Go take a walk instead. Sometimes I feel like I'm getting better at it. I think I need to leave a part of it behind. The early sobriety part maybe.

Purpleman

Yes, this is very similar to my experience too. I was a regular meeting attender for my first 12-18 months alcohol free, then I started pulling back. I'm not religious, & I really don't have a problem with faith-based recovery programs, if that's your thing. In the end I was quite comfortably rocking along with an alcohol free life, & increasingly put off by the zealots, thumpers & god-squadders

DriGuy

I had that insight early on in recovery too. I searched and searched for some childhood repression, or some psychological quirk that was behind my drinking, but to no avail. There was no problem I could find buried deep in my past that warranted turning to alcohol.

Basically what I discovered is that I had no problems that caused me to drink, but that my drinking was the issue causing me problems. But I had to stop before I recognized that.

This may not be true of everyone. I've heard that Post Traumatic Stress can cause people to drink, and can easily believe that. But my problem was that a dangerous addictive chemical substance had taken over my life. The problem was much more simple than I imagined. The cure was simpler too; Just stop drinking. Sure go ahead and change other things in you life too, and that too becomes easier when you take alcohol out of the picture.

And as you pointed out, many of those things just disappear without having to force them or to take any further action. Yes, quitting was a white knuckle endeavor, but only for a short while.

August252015

I always say that whatever we do, we have to take the substance out of the equation to start getting anywhere.

Ken33xx

My last few years of drinking I recall feeling rundown and burned out most of the time. It wasn't until I stopped that I realized how much alcohol affected by body.

At 35 I was still drinking like I did in my early 20's and I could no longer bounce back. For the last ten years my life was barely unmanageable. The day I stopped was the day I began to get my life back in order.

I recall sharing shortly after joining AA I was now going to the laundromat twice a week. I recall one member laughing and saying he can do a lot more than his laundry twice a week.

But he didn't get it. I hadn't been cleaning my clothes very often for years... and now I was.

After I stopped there were no more calls into the office asking if I had been drinking. My job performance improved immediately.

I've often shared at AA meetings the day I stopped was the day my problems associated with problem drinking also stopped. Which isn't to say I don't have other issues but to say that simply putting the bottle down was a life-changing event.

With regards to AA: Much of the bearing witness/self-flagellation heard in meeting is something I try and avoid.

I'm hard enough on myself as it is.

Ken33xx

Deleted double post.

JdA23

Tetrax

This one! But yeah maybe go to some smaller shows to begin with. I went to an intimate gig last year a bit nervous but loved it once I relaxed knowing I wasn't gonna drink (which included posting on here to be fair).