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Old 02-17-2020, 12:33 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by biminiblue View Post
It's always interesting to see how people jump on ONE thing that someone says who has left or is questioning AA.

I don't think it's necessary to publicly proclaim, "I am an alcoholic." I knew it when I walked into my first meeting, but it is a common sticking point for a lot of people and it was one of the things that pushed me away from AA. Those of you questioning him, why does it matter to YOU if he self-identifies as an alcoholic or not?? If you want to say it, by all means, do so.

"We have recovered." That's what it says in the book, yet at meetings I was told in no uncertain terms by several people that I had to introduce myself before I spoke as, "I'm bim, I'm an alcoholic." I mentioned that that made me uncomfortable. No where in the Big Book does it say you have to say that at a meeting, yet I found out I did in fact have to say that or get jumped on.

Again in this thread that belief is being voiced.

I think if you're a drinker in an AA meeting that pretty much speaks for itself. If ya'll backed off a little on these rigid Rules that aren't even real rules, more people might like the fellowship.

"Alcoholic," still carries a stigma. It still brings up shame for people. I don't see why that has to be part of any speaking that is done.
I don't care one way or the other. The OP can do as he likes.

However, in a closed meeting of AA one is often required to identify as an alcoholic before sharing.

My question: Is this identification (for whatever the reason) something you (OP) just didn't care for? Or because you no longer consider yourself an alcoholic?

Personally, I found there are many things which members aren't fond of in AA. Arguments are almost a ritual in the fellowship.

Case in point: Ending a meeting with the Lord's Prayers. It's not usually to see a few members not join in.

However, I can't recall the last time I heard anyone say they aren't comfortable identifying as an alcoholic. Except those new to AA and unsure.

Which is why I asked.
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Old 02-17-2020, 05:21 PM   #82 (permalink)
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For some reason I particularly like the word alcoholic as an adjective (as AA uses it, alongside the more common noun usage). It seems more informal: 'Oh I can't touch that, I'm alcoholic.' Plus it sounds more like you're allergic to it or something. Compare: '... I'm an alcoholic.' It can seem like that's all you are. I do however find that using the noun does help me, because telling myself, 'You are an alcoholic, and all that that entails,' reminds me succinctly of the simple facts of the matter, should a great idea about drinking being a great idea come up.

Anyway, I think this is just my linguistics background coming out, very late at night. Sorry for wittering on. I guess the term can be helpful to some, but maybe not to everyone. I should try and remember that.

I do wanna watch that film The Anonymous People though.
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Old 02-17-2020, 07:27 PM   #83 (permalink)
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bim, i understood the not-having-to-identify.....as referring to the poster by the poster.
i don’t care at all if people identify themselves that way or not at an open AA meeting.
i DO care in some other circumstances.
for example: i cared that the person i chose to sponsor me self-identified that way.
and the couple of times i forgot to say it at a meeting, ha! “and who are you???” was shot across the room.
i carried on with what i was saying and later chatted with the person.
they kinda almost stopped glowering
the whole thing was unpleasant.

then again, there have been other times i have specifically gone to a meeting because i experienced a need to say “i am fini and i am an alcoholic” in a room full of mostly strangers.

99% of the time i say it. because it is so, in that very sense in which it is described in the literature that the common solution presented in the meeting was designed for.
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:17 AM   #84 (permalink)
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I don't care one way or the other. The OP can do as he likes.

However, in a closed meeting of AA one is often required to identify as an alcoholic before sharing.

My question: Is this identification (for whatever the reason) something you (OP) just didn't care for? Or because you no longer consider yourself an alcoholic?

Personally, I found there are many things which members aren't fond of in AA. Arguments are almost a ritual in the fellowship.

Case in point: Ending a meeting with the Lord's Prayers. It's not usually to see a few members not join in.

However, I can't recall the last time I heard anyone say they aren't comfortable identifying as an alcoholic. Except those new to AA and unsure.

Which is why I asked.
Although in my own self, I admit to myself that I have alcoholic tendencies and in the past alcohol has played a part in some
terrible decisions I've made. But I do not announce or tell anyone that I am alcoholic anymore. I was listening to a podcast yesterday about
developing templates in which to live by. I can't allow myself to live by someone else's template, I have to build my own template to how the world "I" live in revolves around me and "My" template needs to suit this world. If someone needs to declare that they are alcoholic to keep them sober, then by all means.
Our road to sobriety has to be our own and if that works for one person, great! For me, not so much. I have a independent mind, a diy attitude, but sometimes I just need a little guidance.(thank you AA for the guidance!)
Although, this identity stuff makes me feel claustrophobic and isolated. Honestly, I'm completely comfortable being "someone who just doesn't drink" compared to "I'm alcoholic
so therefore i don't drink". "For me" that sets a constant reminder that I'm broken in some way, failure is lurking just beyond my periphery and I have to be cautious
everywhere I go, around family, friends, coworkers. It's very tiresome to feel like I'm walking on thin ice and every decision I make is
calculated around alcohol. Those thoughts and feelings are what I needed to remove from my mindset if I was to ever feel recovered. For my own recovery, I can't
keep telling myself Im an alcoholic because the the word, the term, this liquid that has caused harm in my life is still controlling my life. (Not that I've ever been on parole but I imagine AA is sort like being
on parole). I apologize if I've offended anyone and the road they are traveling, that is not my intention. I just prefer my recovery to be an open book of suggestion, thinking outside the box and self reliant.
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:37 AM   #85 (permalink)
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Although in my own self, I admit to myself that I have alcoholic tendencies and in the past alcohol has played a part in some
terrible decisions I've made. But I do not announce or tell anyone that I am alcoholic anymore. I was listening to a podcast yesterday about
developing templates in which to live by. I can't allow myself to live by someone else's template, I have to build my own template to how the world "I" live in revolves around me and "My" template needs to suit this world. If someone needs to declare that they are alcoholic to keep them sober, then by all means.
Our road to sobriety has to be our own and if that works for one person, great! For me, not so much. I have a independent mind, a diy attitude, but sometimes I just need a little guidance.(thank you AA for the guidance!)
Although, this identity stuff makes me feel claustrophobic and isolated. Honestly, I'm completely comfortable being "someone who just doesn't drink" compared to "I'm alcoholic
so therefore i don't drink". "For me" that sets a constant reminder that I'm broken in some way, failure is lurking just beyond my periphery and I have to be cautious
everywhere I go, around family, friends, coworkers. It's very tiresome to feel like I'm walking on thin ice and every decision I make is
calculated around alcohol. Those thoughts and feelings are what I needed to remove from my mindset if I was to ever feel recovered. For my own recovery, I can't
keep telling myself Im an alcoholic because the the word, the term, this liquid that has caused harm in my life is still controlling my life. (Not that I've ever been on parole but I imagine AA is sort like being
on parole). I apologize if I've offended anyone and the road they are traveling, that is not my intention. I just prefer my recovery to be an open book of suggestion, thinking outside the box and self reliant.

I don't think you've offended anyone here.

To thine own self be true.

If what you're doing works... then work it.
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:53 AM   #86 (permalink)
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JdA, if you haven't yet, i'd encourage you to check out Lifering secular recovery at
www.lifering.org
sounds right up your alley.
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:56 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Although, this identity stuff makes me feel claustrophobic and isolated.
Words, labels, definitions, etc. gave me lots of trouble over the years. They stood in my way on my path to recovery. They were real stumbling blocks for me. Everyone uses the same words, but they put them together in different patterns and combinations according to the dictionary of their minds. Words are not the process of recovery, merely descriptors.
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Words are not truth. Truth is like the moon, and words are like my finger. I can point to the moon with my finger, but my finger is not the moon. Do you need my finger to see the moon? Huineng
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Old 02-19-2020, 09:25 AM   #88 (permalink)
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JdA ~

The elevated POV of your Thread caught my Eye, so I'd like to weigh in.

To achieve some Years ago what I term 'Effortless Sobriety', I had to recognize - and undo - lots of useless assumptions and practices. I found it less work to tweak and pursue my own Program than try to be the proverbial Square Peg being jammed into a Round Recovery Hole. Referencing an imaginary Pyramid of Priorities for a moment, the highest priority to me was to simply get on with Life sans addictive substances, or addictive Rituals. All items below that top-most Priority were examined and kept, or tossed out. If I don't like a 'popular' Hamburger, what do I care that millions of other Folks do? 'Popularity' or Statistics aren't a basis for me to adhere to Program 'X' if it's simply not a good fit for me. More times than I can count, I've read here of Folks synthesizing their own working Program, and altering it over time as needs morph. Dogma for the sake of Dogma needs to be tossed, in my Sober Universe.

Meanwhile, I spend time in Early Retirement out in what I call The SoberSphere. Among those who sobered up without any formal Program. And - like me - they definitely are 'Real' Alcoholics. Having worked in the World of Hard Science, I appreciated the rigor in this Study methodically indicating that many of us sober up in non-formal ways.

~ Alcoholism Treatment In The United States ~ NIH ~

I always wanted to walk around with my Sobriety internalized. No Social situation; no Trigger; no Wedding Reception; no 'forgetfulness' about my past would affect me one way or another re: picking up again. My Sobriety would not be allowed to hinge on someone taking my call. Because this was the Goal I set, this was the Goal I achieved. One of my Tag Lines: I don't kick my beloved Dog. I don't cheat on my Wife. I don't steal Money from a Pal's Wallet left on the Table. That is, plenty of behaviors in Life are cast in Stone, and are non-negotiable Absolutes. It is not Rocket Science for an Alcoholic to compartmentalize drinking again as one such Practice. I wanna swim in the Olympics? I get in the Pool every Day before Sunrise and put in the hard work to make it happen.

Sobriety is internalized, rigorous dedication at first that can mature into Alcohol becoming meaningless as innumerable activities are undertaken while Sober. You can't lust after Alcohol you no longer want. Another 'Truth' I examined, and rejected: that I forever have to be some Moth circling a Flame [Alcohol] while engaging in ornate Avoidance Mechanisms to prevent Relapse. Consider this question: how did countless Folks over prior Millennia end their Addictions? The Study linked above provides insight. It doesn't have to be the perfect Study conducted only last Year to integrate the Truths therein.

One of many assumptions I tossed was regarding Groups intrinsically being beneficial. Not to us many Introverts they ain't! They can be de-energizing, draining challenges that could make us pick up again if over-done. Just as hanging out 'too much' with those focused on Drinking can. I used to be allergic to Peanuts. Now, I'm not. The same with Childhood Asthma. And, the same with my 42 Years of increasing, Alcoholic consumption leading to heavy 'Maintenance' drinking 24/7. I'm a Recovered Alcoholic who used to drink to insane excess. We're everywhere.

I feel no compulsion to 'help' someone in order to make myself feel better because some Dogma claims it beneficial. WHEN I protect my Sober Serenity, THEN I can [and do] help others in random settings via informal contact that keeps me free and progressing in The SoberSphere. Read all about us here...

~ The Science Of Why Introverts and Extroverts Are Different ~

Whether you are an Introvert is not my point. My point is that there's a significant variation of Addicts that make irrelevant any 'One Size Fits All' Recovery solution. Being out and about in the Recovered World drives home this inarguable Reality. Indeed, I found that not pursuing and tweaking my own Recovery Path and Practices could create a more imminent disaster than would casually assessing what's best for me and my Recovery: the only Recovery that matters to me.

You've got this! Build on what you've learned while keeping the proverbial Baby and the Bath Water. Carry on from there to create your own self-contained Sobriety...
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Old 02-19-2020, 10:50 AM   #89 (permalink)
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JdA ~


Sobriety is internalized, rigorous dedication at first that can mature into Alcohol becoming meaningless as innumerable activities are undertaken while Sober. You can't lust after Alcohol you no longer want. Another 'Truth' I examined, and rejected: that I forever have to be some Moth circling a Flame [Alcohol] while engaging in ornate Avoidance Mechanisms to prevent Relapse.
Thank you for your thorough and thought provoking response. I will look further into the links prescribed. I appreciate the look into being introverted vs extroverted. In retrospect that wasnt something I considered about myself and meetings. I am a private person and AA was sucking that out of me. That can be mentally draining! At one meeting I compared AA to giant threshold that opens up to world of sobriety that I felt I needed to explore. It seems, a this time, it was the right decision to go and explore outside the rooms.
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Old 02-20-2020, 03:41 AM   #90 (permalink)
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I actually read this. OK, I skimmed some of it because scientific slogs try to be necessarily pedantic in their precision.

Breaking down therapy, the kind that usually happens in more formal sessions, into CBT and MET was of interest because as I read through the descriptions, it was fun recognizing things I applied/apply in my own recovery. In fact, most of the effective treatments, overlapped into my own program, with the exception of rehab, pharmacological, and brief Intervention (Doctor's office). Most doctors don't have the time to be effective therapists, and one of my doctors was a known drunk, but that was back in the old days.

On the other hand, my alcoholic grandfather, from back in the dark ages, who actually had a beer man deliver cases of beer and pick up empties on a regular basis, stopped drinking in his 70s after one visit to the doctor, and that was it. I was young and possibly not privy to all the family gossip, but family legend has it that the doctor said, "Herb, you've got to stop drinking," and he just did. However, there were related circumstances that may have contributed. He was seeing the doctor after being injured in a drunk driving accident on the street outside our house (I actually heard the crash and saw his bloody face when he came into the house). It's also possible he was just a garden variety lush, and not an alcoholic. Who would know?
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Old 02-20-2020, 11:27 AM   #91 (permalink)
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I do feel piratically every recovery program can be great if it's the right program for the right person. Whether it be AA or following the Buddhist Principles or following a secular program or just existing as they say "A dry drunk". Only after spending time in a program will you know you've chosen the right one. The important thing here is, that an effort is made to get sober, to change a way of living and that's great place to be no matter what room or meeting you've stepped in.
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Old 02-27-2020, 12:05 AM   #92 (permalink)
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I tried AA and Na but it wasn't for me. Here are 12 reasons why:

1. The Higher Power - I was unable to take on board the idea that God or some other self picked spiritual entity was guiding me in sobriety.

(On more than one occasion members suggested I was unable to identify my HP because I wasn't committed enough to sobriety.)

2. The disease ethos - Whilst addiction has many symptoms of a disease I don't believe addiction is a disease. Addiction begins and ultimately ends with a choice. Cancer, for example, doesn't.

3. The 12 Steps - An extremely prescriptive regimen which must be adhered to exactly with little room for individual interpretation and with many steps based around the 'Higher Power'.

4. Resentments - Step 4 hones in on resentments and makes the assumption all addicts use on resent, bitterness and other negative feelings. My sponsor got so stuck on this with me and refused to believe I had (and still have) no resentments to the point we argued about it.

5. Damaged goods - The idea that all addicts are in some way permanently damaged by trauma or some terrible experience from the past. This isn't always the case and it isn't in my case.

6. Quotes and Chants - I heard stock phrases, idioms and slogans in three different continents many of which were the kind of turn of phrase you might find on a poster on a teenage kids bedroom wall.

7. Keyrings and Chips vs Just For Today - Each meeting begins with talking about the newest member being the most important in the room yet would end with 'claps and whoops and hugs' for sobriety time, the longer the time the bigger the cheers. It seemed like a contradiction to me and I could never see my sobriety as some source of pride like it was a great achievement.

8. Individuals - Whilst many members were agreeable some were insane and a liability. Others were cliquey, arrogant, dismissive and boastful of both their using and their sobriety.

9. Friends of Bill - I often listened to addicts talk about how special addicts were and at many meetings I sensed a smug atmosphere like a bunch of kids in a special super secret club with a secret handshake.

10. Powerlessness - the idea that an addict has absolutely no concept or power over what they are doing seems to shirk any sense of responsibility of ones actions. It wasn't me. It was the addict me.

11. Anti 'geographical' - Doing a geographical, as it is called, is seen as running away and something that 'doesnt work' yet this isn't true. I moved to a new place after getting clean as did many people I know. And it worked.

12. My name is x and I am an addict - this empty statement, along with 'keep coming back', seems to be designed to keep people stranded in recovery for the rest of their lives when surely, deep down, addicts just want to move on.

And no my inner addict isn't in the other room doing press ups. This ethos reminds me of the line from Hotel California

'We are programmed to receive.
You can check out any time you like,
But you can never leave!'

Thanks for reading.
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Old 02-27-2020, 02:42 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Khmu - Thanks for the 12 point post. Kind of a bizarro world take on the 12 steps I suppose. My experience with AA has been different from what you described. OTOH some of your points are quite valid. IMO the AA program is far from perfect but it has helped me. I think the AA program works best as a program of attraction and since you are not attracted to AA it is clearly not for you. But talking about AA's positives and negatives here is unlikely to change the AA program. It is what it is. For me a more interesting topic is what does work for folks who recover w/o AA. Can you tell us what keeps you sober? Thanks!
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Old 02-27-2020, 04:29 AM   #94 (permalink)
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I prefer to think of a recovery toolbox. There are aspects of different methods including AA in my toolbox.
I always felt AA was a roadmap for those who previously did not have one or significantly lost their way.
I no longer identify as an alcoholic. Previously, yes, I used to drink, now I no longer drink. I am a teetotaler, non drinker, however you want to categorize it. I don't categorize myself, it is unnecessary for my sobriety.
So what is in my toolbox, some AA stuff, I agree with the steps. I even did them on my own. I like the concept of how to solve resentments, by looking inward. I have a lot of cognitive therapy in there, chats with my therapist when I feel wobbly, spiritual, sure, I have always attended and been involved in church. Volunteer work, I have always done that, so spiritual and service, those were already part of my life.
Life has changed a lot since I stopped drinking, I as a person have grown tremendously. I am grateful and appreciate the gift of sobriety. I use sober recovery here and there, I lack the time, because life has gone on, to read a whole lot anymore. I usually check in every so often, skim read titles. If I am interested I read, if not, I move on. I believe myself free from the chains of alcoholic addiction, I am free of nicotine and sugar. Drugs were always take or leave, gambling, I might scratch one of dh's Christmas gift scratch ticket packs, otherwise, no interest. It is possible to heal and recover.
I have a big party in a few weeks, the alcohol will be flowing, I know it won't bother me. If it is like last Saturday dh will have 2 drinks and be unable to drive. (We do very low carb, changes the speed you metabolize alcohol) The caterer is one I love, the band, well I have wanted to hear them for years, (my best friend's brother), and the cake is from a well reviewed bakery and I am having a slice! There are always sober folks to hang with. I can and do enjoy an active social life. Without alcohol, or the thought of it being no more than, the bathroom is to the left of the bar.
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Old 02-27-2020, 09:14 AM   #95 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KhmuNation View Post
I tried AA and Na but it wasn't for me. Here are 12 reasons why:

1. The Higher Power - I was unable to take on board the idea that God or some other self picked spiritual entity was guiding me in sobriety.

(On more than one occasion members suggested I was unable to identify my HP because I wasn't committed enough to sobriety.)

2. The disease ethos - Whilst addiction has many symptoms of a disease I don't believe addiction is a disease. Addiction begins and ultimately ends with a choice. Cancer, for example, doesn't.

3. The 12 Steps - An extremely prescriptive regimen which must be adhered to exactly with little room for individual interpretation and with many steps based around the 'Higher Power'.

4. Resentments - Step 4 hones in on resentments and makes the assumption all addicts use on resent, bitterness and other negative feelings. My sponsor got so stuck on this with me and refused to believe I had (and still have) no resentments to the point we argued about it.

5. Damaged goods - The idea that all addicts are in some way permanently damaged by trauma or some terrible experience from the past. This isn't always the case and it isn't in my case.

6. Quotes and Chants - I heard stock phrases, idioms and slogans in three different continents many of which were the kind of turn of phrase you might find on a poster on a teenage kids bedroom wall.

7. Keyrings and Chips vs Just For Today - Each meeting begins with talking about the newest member being the most important in the room yet would end with 'claps and whoops and hugs' for sobriety time, the longer the time the bigger the cheers. It seemed like a contradiction to me and I could never see my sobriety as some source of pride like it was a great achievement.

8. Individuals - Whilst many members were agreeable some were insane and a liability. Others were cliquey, arrogant, dismissive and boastful of both their using and their sobriety.

9. Friends of Bill - I often listened to addicts talk about how special addicts were and at many meetings I sensed a smug atmosphere like a bunch of kids in a special super secret club with a secret handshake.

10. Powerlessness - the idea that an addict has absolutely no concept or power over what they are doing seems to shirk any sense of responsibility of ones actions. It wasn't me. It was the addict me.

11. Anti 'geographical' - Doing a geographical, as it is called, is seen as running away and something that 'doesnt work' yet this isn't true. I moved to a new place after getting clean as did many people I know. And it worked.

12. My name is x and I am an addict - this empty statement, along with 'keep coming back', seems to be designed to keep people stranded in recovery for the rest of their lives when surely, deep down, addicts just want to move on.

And no my inner addict isn't in the other room doing press ups. This ethos reminds me of the line from Hotel California

'We are programmed to receive.
You can check out any time you like,
But you can never leave!'

Thanks for reading.
Interesting take on AA. Here are some thoughts:


6: I find some slogans relevant and others hooky. For example I found "one day at a time" very helpful early in sobriety. Even today after two decades of sobriety I don't think about tomorrow. What's important is I don't pick up a drink today.

7. The new person is the important in the room and it's not uncommon for groups to switch to step one that meeting. Personally, I never felt anything odd with celebrating various lengths of sobriety. And those new often get a big round of applause after reaching various milestones in their first year.

8. I sensed within my first few months there were members...some with years of sobriety who were "off." So, I avoided them. Overall I found a majority of those in the rooms helpful and easy to get along with.
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Old 02-27-2020, 09:54 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by AAPJ View Post
Khmu - Thanks for the 12 point post. Kind of a bizarro world take on the 12 steps I suppose. My experience with AA has been different from what you described. OTOH some of your points are quite valid. IMO the AA program is far from perfect but it has helped me. I think the AA program works best as a program of attraction and since you are not attracted to AA it is clearly not for you. But talking about AA's positives and negatives here is unlikely to change the AA program. It is what it is. For me a more interesting topic is what does work for folks who recover w/o AA. Can you tell us what keeps you sober? Thanks!
The last AA meeting I went to, which was my home group. I asked a similar question. Mine was "outside of meetings, forums etc...what keeps you sober. as if one day AA didn't exist, what would you do?" That was the first time I felt I started thinking that AA wasn't for me. I was almost laughed at for asking such a thing. I was asking because for me, i did not want to become dependent on AA for my sobriety. I needed to find my own path. My sponsor, who is a great guy, could never talk to me without mentioning the BB. I think I just wanted to feel normal again, have open discussions about navigating a sober world without be reminded of something that Im choosing to not be. So, I decided to start living a life without meetings, stepwork, sponsoring others and started focusing on my own self, to be responsible for my own self and not have the fear of rooms , my sponsor, fellow AA's bearing down on me waiting for me to mess up. Ive been sober since Oct 18. tomorrow would've been my 1 year anniversary in AA. Im still sober today because it's a choice I make to not drink. Not because of a program or fear of disappointment. The best part is, I feel like I can breathe and feel carefree with my own free will, not God's will. But I can also say that I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for AA, and for that I am grateful for. I just needed to follow my heart.
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Old 02-27-2020, 01:11 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JdA23 View Post
The last AA meeting I went to, which was my home group. I asked a similar question. Mine was "outside of meetings, forums etc...what keeps you sober. as if one day AA didn't exist, what would you do?" That was the first time I felt I started thinking that AA wasn't for me. I was almost laughed at for asking such a thing. I was asking because for me, i did not want to become dependent on AA for my sobriety. I needed to find my own path. My sponsor, who is a great guy, could never talk to me without mentioning the BB. I think I just wanted to feel normal again, have open discussions about navigating a sober world without be reminded of something that Im choosing to not be. So, I decided to start living a life without meetings, stepwork, sponsoring others and started focusing on my own self, to be responsible for my own self and not have the fear of rooms , my sponsor, fellow AA's bearing down on me waiting for me to mess up. Ive been sober since Oct 18. tomorrow would've been my 1 year anniversary in AA. Im still sober today because it's a choice I make to not drink. Not because of a program or fear of disappointment. The best part is, I feel like I can breathe and feel carefree with my own free will, not God's will. But I can also say that I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for AA, and for that I am grateful for. I just needed to follow my heart.

Maybe three weeks after joining I shared in a meeting I thought AA was non-denominational. I was told it is.

So, I asked if AA is non-denominational... why do we end the meeting with the Lords Prayer?

Now, I was raised a Catholic and don't have an issue with the prayer. I was asking what I thought a legitimate question.

I was told AA isn't religious. It's spiritual.

O.k. but if it's spiritual why are we ending with a religious prayer? I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I just didn't get it.

However, I quickly learned to get along in AA it's sometimes best to go along.

So I stopped asking.
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Old 02-27-2020, 03:26 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Maybe three weeks after joining I shared in a meeting I thought AA was non-denominational. I was told it is.

So, I asked if AA is non-denominational... why do we end the meeting with the Lords Prayer?

Now, I was raised a Catholic and don't have an issue with the prayer. I was asking what I thought a legitimate question.

I was told AA isn't religious. It's spiritual.

O.k. but if it's spiritual why are we ending with a religious prayer? I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I just didn't get it.

However, I quickly learned to get along in AA it's sometimes best to go along.

So I stopped asking.

When JC came up with the prayer, it didn't have a name and wasn't attached to anything or anyone.

There was no Christianity and denomination there of.

Fair to say it was spiritual prayer that has since been attached.
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Old 02-27-2020, 03:41 PM   #99 (permalink)
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When JC came up with the prayer, it didn't have a name and wasn't attached to anything or anyone.

There was no Christianity and denomination there of.

Fair to say it was spiritual prayer that has since been attached.

But today there is and has been for some time and the prayer is widely associated with Christianity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer
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Old 02-27-2020, 04:04 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Interestingly look at how the U.S. courts ruled:

Inside AA, one hears members frequently repeat the well-known phrase “AA is spiritual, not religious.” AA takes pride in saying it’s not religious. But what do outsiders, such as the court systems, think about AA’s claim?

In the ten year period between 1996 and 2007, five high-level US courts — three federal circuit courts and two state supreme courts – did take a long and hard look at AA’s claim....

Because multiple high-level courts have ruled uniformly on this matter, these rulings now constitute “clearly established law” in the US. Here’s what one of these courts, the New York Court of Appeals, in the case of Griffin v. Coughlin, had to say about the matter:

A fair reading of the fundamental A.A. doctrinal writings discloses that their dominant theme is unequivocally religious.

Indeed, the A.A. basic literature most reasonably would be characterized as reflecting the traditional elements common to most theistic religions. Thus, God is named or referred to in five of the 12 steps. “Working” the 12 steps includes confessing to God the “nature of our wrongs” (Step 5), appealing to God “to remove our shortcomings” (Step 7) and seeking “through prayer and meditation” to make “contact” with God and achieve “knowledge of His Will” (Step 11).

While A.A. literature declares an openness and tolerance for each participant’s personal vision of God “as we understood Him” (Steps 3 and 11), the writings demonstrably express an aspiration that each member of the movement will ultimately commit to a belief in the existence of a Supreme Being of independent higher reality than humankind.

All of the meetings ended with the Lord’s Prayer, which is a specifically Christian prayer. In addition, those attending the meetings were strongly encouraged to pray...

https://aaagnostica.org/2012/05/27/t...-and-religion/
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