Atheists/Agnostics with 12-step
 

I am currently beginning the AA program. I know from experience that many people have recovered through the 12-step program, even without a "spiritual" belief. If anyone here can relate to this, I am wondering what "higher power" you have turned to in this case. Thanks for your help.

I actually just read the "12 Statements" thread. That's exactly what I was looking for; thanks. The only thing I'm wondering is whether I could still attend traditional AA meetings and have a sponsor/eventually sponsor others.

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."

For me the "path" is a higher power.

As in - The Tao, the way, the path.

:smilejap:

Indeed, I accept the recovery path itself as my HP. It has expectations of behavior, and is powerful help in a crisis.

I'm an atheist and I have found that I have no problem applying the 12 steps of NA.

In my experience I was fixated too much upon the definition of this power greater than myself, and was tripped up over the use of the word god. Despite initially hating such acronyms, I have become fond of sayings such as "good orderly direction" or "guider of decisions".

The power of my understanding is multifaceted, but a large part is the program itself. Spiritual principles become ethical principles. "My god" works through others just as the god of my theistic peers does. The difference is they believe that there is a conscious being "behind the veil pulling the strings", whereas I do not.

Step two is extremely profound for me. It does not say that we believed in god, it says that we came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. - First I had hope by witnessing the evidence in the lives of others, then I came to believe that this program could work for me via the evidence that began to be produced in my own life.

The Big Book is very clear on this issue; a true Atheist can't work the 12-Steps. 12-Step doctrine requires a belief in a supernatural, interventionist deity.

Of course, an Atheist can either change the 12-Steps to match their beliefs, or they can change their beliefs to match 12-Step doctrine; however, the Steps--as written--require the belief in a supernatural deity who will intervene on one's behalf.

This is one of the reasons I rejected AA and it's 12-Step program. I was not willing to adjust and compromise my cherished beliefs to fit 12-Step orthodoxy. And I was not going to rewrite the 12-Steps to fit my beliefs but still claim I was "working the Steps" and "using AA". Doing so would have been dishonest and disingenuous.

Fortunately, there are plenty of ways to obtain a quality of sobriety, so not using AA should not be an issue for anyone who doesn't agree with AA's doctrine.

Peace

Fortunately the Narcotics Anonymous Basic Text does not have a "we agnostics" chapter. The literature makes it clear that an addict's definition of the power greater than themselves is entirely up to them, and our right to a power of our understanding is total and without any catches. Page 56 of NA Living Clean book also gives voice to and legitimizes atheism as a viable path in 12-step recovery.

The "g word" was a huge stumbling block for me as my bookcase is full of Dawkins, Harris, Asimov, Dennett, Hitchens, and the like. - It has been my experience that not only did I not need to rewrite the steps, I also did not need to alter or compromise my beliefs in order to practice them. The only thing I needed to do was to use the word "god" as a convenient shorthand to refer this power of my understanding (multifaceted as it is).

YMMV

I believe we will have to agree to disagree, Ivan. However, I do want to apologize for my contentious comments. I can sometimes split hairs and my tendency to be certain on some issues causes me to speak when I should listen.

I do have trouble understanding how an atheist can work Steps 7 and 11 without a belief in an outside, supernatural interventionist force of some type, but I should learn to accept that many atheists have managed to overcome that hurdle.

One reason I’m often so adamant about this issue is because I fear those people with atheist beliefs or more esoteric spiritual beliefs may feel they are somehow at fault if they cannot reconcile those beliefs with 12-Step doctrine. IMO there is a tendency for recovery professionals and 12-Step adherents to suggest anyone with any belief can fairly easily incorporate their important views with 12-Step doctrine, and I feel that isn’t true. And even more concerning is my experience with some 12-Step members being dismissive (and even critical) of individuals with beliefs counter to 12-Step doctrine. Hence, my strong emotions when the subject comes up.

But again, I should be more open to the ideas of others.

Again, I apologize for my argumentative comments. That attitude doesn’t don’t help me and others to focus on the big picture, and that’s helping each other to obtain a quality sobriety.

Hi Time to Rise good on you for your last post re 12 steps , but you mention 7 and 11 , 3 5 6 refer to God as you understand and could believe in, Step 2 illustrates this .

In 32 years wasted experience in AA mostly as a miserable discontented dry drunk drinking and not drinking, I whenever I heard the G word I immediately associated it with ''religion '' (old ideas ) of course I heard the word ''spiritual '' but did not view it differently ( wrong ) .

AA is not a religious program it is a ''spiritual program '' spiritual to me ''means inner feelings correct thinking , simplicity at its best and love towards everything on earth '' that all comes from within, feelings kindness being helpful and considerate and compassionate all this leads to peace of mind and contentment which are two ''essential assets '' in contented sobriety , doing these Steps with a spiritual outlook gets rid of ''all our old ideas '' which always will eventually lead to drinking . Heard it said one time '' I do not want to talk about the spiritual side of AA '' he got the reply ''OK lets talk about the other side ? '' . The guy did not know what to say

Problem lies on ''interpretation '' some people do have religious beliefs that is ''their choice '' unfortunately a new member can be in a meeting and get the idea that AA is religious because of people sharing ''their beliefs '' unfortunately sometimes you do not get two chances of a first impression . When Ebby met Bill W he told Bill ''I Have got Religion '' Bill W immediately dismissed that idea telling Ebby he did not believe in God in a traditional sense '' Ebby said that's fine ''choose your own conception of God '' now that is a fact.

I firmly and personally ''do not believe or agree with religion '' that is just me , anyone else ? well that is their own business .

I am 10 years ''recovered '' and I have had a ''spiritual awakening '' as the result of these Steps .

My higher power is God in a spiritual sense and it comes from within , I do not believe in heaven or hell or rituals or worship or being subservient . As Boleo suggested follow the ''Path '' Group Of Drunks , Good Orderly Direction , Get Off Drink its all suggested so if one wants to make it ''a plan '' very good but it is important to have a plan or path which lead to something much better than before . take care .

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .

If a Man Hears a Different Drummer ? Let Him March to the Drum He Hears

Right on. No offense taken. - It is unfortunately true that well meaning folk can sometimes marginalize atheists and agnostics in AA or NA. Considering my proclivity to do the same thing from the other side of the fence, I have learned that we do better when we promote an atmosphere of respect and tolerance for each others' beliefs, at least in the context of recovery, which is a life or death matter.

Stevieg46 hit several nails on the head.

FWIW, I'll give you a very quick and probably incomplete rundown of the steps as I have come to understand them as an atheist.

One forces me to be honest that I can't use "just one", has me come to terms with the fact that I can't excise or remove my addiction, and brings me face to face with the fact that my way of navigating life has caused me and others turmoil.

Two has me open my mind to the possibility that something else might work, and perhaps, not only could I be able to stop using, but maybe I could be comfortable in my own skin and would be able to handle life and my emotions.

Three becomes the logical "next move" after considering one and two. To me the first three steps were (and continue to be) "I'm beaten, I hope this works, today I'll follow this new way of life and do what these experienced people suggest".

Four is nothing more than opening the hood (bonnet for you brits) and seeing what makes me tick.

Five for me involved going over my detailed self assessment with my sponsor (someone who had been where I was and had found a way out and was where I wanted to be). As an atheist, the closest I come to admitting my shortcomings to god would be disclosing some of my insecurities and faults to other people in recovery, sometimes at meetings. These people aren't "god", but they are a facet or manifestation of this power greater than myself.

Six involved a closer look at those parts of my behavior and personality that were comfortable but that caused me and other people harm and discomfort. The worse I feel (especially about myself), the greater the likelihood that I will return to using to try to dull that pain. Every day I work on becoming willing to try a different way of life.

Seven - Not as odd as you'd think. It is a very personal step. I ask for help in living a different way free from the limitations of my character flaws and maladaptive behaviors and habits. I receive guidance and direction from others who have been there and have had some success in changing. - Quite literally I have asked things like "how do I stop from being so sarcastic?" or "I can't seem to overcome my fear of looking for a new job - what can I do?" - Then I take some guidance and direction from my sponsor, other experienced NA members, and a from host of other sources. My own thinking is more than a bit myopic and distorted. I simply solicit assistance in becoming a better person. - Simple.

Eight and Nine are pretty cut and dry. All I'll say is a huge part of the amends process for me is the fact that every day I no longer use and I no longer engage in the behaviors that I used to. This is a big amends to everyone around me and to myself.

Ten is kind of a maintenance routine and helps me not only not get too far off track, but over time (and on a good day) it has me alter my behavior before it happens.

Eleven, like Seven is a really personal step. A large part of this power of my understanding is my reawakened conscience and a set of values, principles, morals, aspirations, ethics, and a vision of how I would like to be. Every day I "pray" to be receptive to "the message" wherever it may come from. Meditation for me is just listening for the answer to that prayer. Sometimes my thoughts become clear while driving or walking or even in the shower. Sometimes prayer is reading the literature and meditation is actually paying attention while I read! - Sometimes the "message" I asked to be receptive to is nothing more than a co-worker giving me some good advice on how to handle a troubling situation or letting me know that my attitude is getting off balance. - Knowledge of "gods will for me" is simply having how I should act become apparent to me, and the "power to carry that out" is nothing more than having the guts or integrity or tenacity to follow through with what I know is "the right thing to do".

Twelve is pretty straightforward. I have indeed started to become awakened to a new way of life and I am starting to have a new perspective. My actions and words carry the message that any addict can stop using drugs, lose the desire to use, and find a new way to live. I try each day to do just a little better than the day before.

Thank you for the rundown Ivan. It's very well written. I will reread it and give your descriptions and views on the Steps serious thought.

Thanks again.

Peace

My higher power is what it was before recovery but I'm doing better at unlearning what I thought it was. Willingness to change, then the desire to change, and to keep doing it were/are the keys for me.

My higher power is neither supernatural or interventionist. Its been giving me the consequences of my choices since the day I was born. I find the less I think I know about how it works the better off I am. If I hold off on spending time trying analyze and specify my higher power and instead keep busy with the 12-step principles and related study then I'm more in touch with the world around me and less caught up in my own head, and I'm pretty happy with that.

I'm Buddhist, I imperfectly follow the practices of one of the Nicherin sects, from Japan. If I had to put a Higher Power label on something I guess it'd be the whole universe, all the way down the quantum foam beneath everything, including all the particles that make me up. So I don't bother with that kind of stuff anymore, my business is living in the world according to a few principles, not putting labels on things that I've not been asked to.

"Dhamma - (not to be confused with Dharma) A form of self wider than Samkhara; universal, unbound, all inclusive and undefinable."
(Walpola Rahula)

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things."
(Tao Te Ching)

"The Tao belongs neither to knowing or not knowing. It is paradoxically “nothing”, yet it is “in everything”. It is the “NoThing” that surrounds everything and gives“Things” form. How can it be described? "Thirty spokes on a cartwheel go towards the hub that is the center — but look, there is nothing at the center,and that is precisely how it works!" Tao is explained as being the “no thing” within all things. The Tao does nothing — yet nothing is left undone."
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post4662883

Great thread, and it's really nice to see my own conceptions of the 12 Steps shared and articulated way better than I ever could myself. IvanMike's descriptions of Steps 7 and 11 resonate especially.

Funny I should run across this thread on the very day that I made an impetuous post to the Step 11 sub-forum regarding an article attributed (correctly or not) to Bill W. To me, reading between the lines, the essence of the article comports with IvanMike's description in this thread very well.

One might even consider I was being subtly directed by a (gasp!) Higher Power! ;)

"The term synchronicity is coined by Jung to express a concept that belongs to him. It is about acausal connection of two or more psycho-physic phenomena..."

Carl Jung - Synchronicity

I still struggle with this and could benefit from community, but...

It's not so much the God or Higher Power thing that throws me. I can let my "practice" be the higher power.

But I stumble step after step.

First, I was miserable, but my life hadn't become unmanageable. It would have had I continued down that path. Certainly, many people's lives do become unmanageable, but I believe there are a lot of addicts (including alcoholics) who manage their lives surprisingly well despite their addictions.

Second, I was not insane, so I didn't need a Power greater than myself to restore me to sanity. Addicts are not by definition insane. Some are, no doubt, but many are simply addicts (though addiction is much deeper and more complicated than the word "simply" might imply).

Third, I'm more than two years sober, and have been practicing Buddhist recovery. I haven't turned my will or my life over to anything in particular, but I have found that meditation and yoga have helped stabilize my moods and strengthen me physically and psychologically. I've done this largely on my own, and with the support of family.

Nothing or nobody is going to remove my shortcomings (they are what they are - or were), and I bristle when addicts talk about their "defects of character." Certainly, many of us suffer from cognitive distortions, but that is not to say our character is defected. We can change how we think and behave.

When I read the 12 Steps, and when I listen to addicts talk at meetings, I am saddened how many have translated the Steps into a sense that they are (or were) insane and defected, and continue to be dependent on some mysterious Power outside themselves rather than their own intelligence and free will. Sometimes I just want to stand up and say, "Come on, give yourself some credit!" It's like they've been taught to believe they were insane and defected and the only thing that saved them was their Faith.

I've met many 12 Steppers who are years into recovery but continue to view themselves as defected. It often goes deeper than humility; it's a damaged sense of self that sometimes seems perpetuated by 12 Step philosophy.

Mindfulness and science, on the other hand, encourage me to recognize that I was genetically predisposed to run into problems with substance abuse, and the traumas I've endured only exacerbated matters (nature and nurture). I didn't need to turn over my will to Anything; I needed to learn to FEEL and to ACCEPT my experience, past, present, and future, in a way that allows me to embrace it rather than numb myself or try to hide under a rock. That, to me, is what recovery is about.

Are you sure you need to have an opinion of someone else's higher power, much less a judgement about their experience of recovery in their own head?

I know a fair # of Christian AA & Alanons who state in meeting shares that they still have all their character defects, and that its the action of the program- and perhaps their higher power- that keeps them from acting upon them anymore.

And I've yet to meet active AA/Alanons who somehow numb themselves or hide- in fact its the opposite; the active members often say their program work- and perhaps their higher power too- helped them to feel things again.

For my part, I leave theology at the door; as an outside issue. As it happens I'm not as smart or well informed about it as I thought I was. In fact thinking I knew a thing or two was a big part of what created the need for my own recovery in the first place.

zero,
there is no reason for you or anyone to struggle with this if you perceive/experience no benefit from it and your experience of your addiction and yourself doesn't fit whatsoever into the paradigm laid out in 12-step program.

you seem to have found exactly what works well for you (intelligence and free will, meditation and buddhist practice), so...why keep struggling with this?

genuine question.

Zero, defects of character and shortcomings as described in the AA 12 steps do not infer deformities or frailties of character in human beings''we are all spiritually imperfect''. Anyone that prefers the 12 step AA path are ''human beings and the steps guide them towards trying and becoming spiritual beings '' all dependent on effort put in aiming for a ''spiritual awakening '' and its all ''suggested '' take care.


Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .

If a man hears a different drummer let him march to the drummer he hears

IMO the real goal of "Recovery" is equanimity, not just sobriety (though that is a good start). Anything that brings more POMJSOP
(Peace Of Mind, Joy, Sense Of Purpose) into my life serves as a Higher Power. Although calling it "Higher Power" is a bit of a misnomer. It may in fact be a Wider Power or Universal Power that serves as the guiding force.

Labeling the power, judging the power or placing too many expectations on that power will lead me away from equanimity. Now I prefer to "detach from the outcome" as Eckhart Tolle likes to say or "leave theology at the door" as you like to say.