Johnston

The former allows one to dress funny and not get arrested in North Carolina for using the wrong bathroom. The latter allows one to lazily avoid the deep theological and philosophical underpinnings of the former, while still claiming an odd relationship with a deity that provides health care.

What makes them both the same is the deity part.

stevieg46

Good sense of humor but I know you did not post it as a joke , my take is religion is all man made designed to control and keep the masses in ignorance telling them how to worship , pray or use traditional prayers which are really ''impersonal '' having all sorts of ceremonies and rituals . To me is is not freedom of thought or belief its all ''instructions '' I believe very deeply in God as I love God as totally spiritual in nature and its just one word ''love '' that is God ''of my understanding '' .

You did not answer my question about why is there no ''spiritual wars '' ?.

Deep theological theories and debates and studies and research '' done it '' to me its a complete waste of time and effort , I would never ever dissuade anybody trying to get sober to give up their faith or religion I respect that greatly , its just personally not for me , that is simple not an out or an excuse but a fact which I agree with , take care .

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .

Johnston

Ain't going down that rabbit hole, Alice. It's a pretty weak logical fallacy anyway.

Take care, and make sure those prayer knuckles are kept in shape.

IvanMike

Oddly enough, axiomatic thinking is not just confined to the religious and theistic.

I showed up to NA long on theory and short on experience.

I am without question a "Dawkins category 6 - De facto atheist", and find that not only can I practice the 12 steps of recovery without compromising my epistemological beliefs, but that they have made a dramatic difference in my life.

To suggest otherwise, or to claim that I am either delusional or disingenuous would be presumptuous in the extreme.

But, as Nilsson's Rock Man said, "You see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear. You dig?"

Andante

That's funny. To me, the distinction between spiritual and religious is abundantly obvious and clear, and how anyone could have difficulty with it is beyond me.

zerothehero

And a link within that article is quite impressive and thought-provoking:
The Irrationality of Alcoholics Anonymous - The Atlantic

awuh1

I applaud your sense of humor Johnston, but it adds no weight to your assertion that there is no difference between spirituality and religion. In fact it merely adds weight to the proposition that you cannot recognize that distinction.

Buddhism for example is a spiritual practice (and set of beliefs) which has no deity associated with it. Likewise Taoism.

Beware of dogmatic beliefs. They can be present quite independent of religious conviction. Its best to keep an open mind.

stevieg46

Yes Obleo had a point , didn't he , long time ago but I think Nillson open up with Obleo , take care .

Regards Stevie

schnappi99

I think religion is liturgy, spirituality is belief. Sometimes found together, sometimes individually. And using Buddhist terminology; perhaps they correspond to emptiness and form, respectively.

zerothehero

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ― Steven Weinberg

Boleo

Both Buddhism and Taoism are "Non-theistic" in the the sense that they don't prostelyze for or against anything... including beliefs, religion or deities.

They are action-based as opposed to faith-based practices. Whatever you believe is considered a moot-issue. In other words, action speaks louder than words. Perhaps that explains the difference between religious and spiritual practices.

Johnston

Could this argument be used to support the assertion that AA is spiritual rather than religious?

stevieg46

No argument needed AA is spiritual , if it had been religious it would have folded many years ago , you need to experience and practice a spiritual way of life and by doing so ''you then know what you are talking about, based on fact '' practice as they say make perfect ( though I am not ) theories are non practical , and can make people look stupid you cannot practice a theory can you ?

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .

IvanMike

I suppose.

I have been thinking about what Zero and SP were talking about in terms of changing the language and mindset.

My sponsor, (who is not an atheist) has been around a long time. He always talks about this power greater than himself, and believes that the language in the steps and literature ought to be changed to that rather than use the word "god". However, until such time (if ever) I join the ranks who speak in those terms.

I am much more comfortable with the language of the NA literature, which contains no "we agnostics" chapter, and which repeatedly emphasizes the idea that your concept of this power greater than yourself is up to you. One of their texts expressly validates atheism as a valid pathway in recovery.

Seen in that light, It has been my experience that the 12 step program has evolved from its unquestionably theistic origins. That set of principles when put into action produces results. There was a time when I wanted to follow some alternate set of secular steps, but I found that they missed the mark. It turned out that I could follow the steps as written and the word "god" simply became shorthand for the power of my own understanding. In NA, the expression of the 12 step program may not have evolved enough for some, but it is moving in the right direction (IMO).

It's not all that unlike looking at the book of proverbs as an atheist and coming to the conclusion that it's pretty good stuff. Even there, replace the word "god" with "moral code of conduct" or whatever suits your fancy and it's not such a bad way to live.

as always, YMMV

Boleo

How many times does "Faith without works is dead" appear in the Big Book? I take it that means; what you do is more important than what you believe.

Johnston

But the faith does precede the works, n'est-ce pas?

Boleo

My sponsor talked me into putting myself into a long-term rehab farm recovery program. Something I believed was 99% bogus, counterintuitive and even absurd.

However, I was desperate enough to try "anything" that had gotten results for others like myself. You might even say the only GOD I belived in at the time was Gift Of Desperatation.

My action was not exactly faith based. It was more like do first - believe later. I took the action in spite of my beliefs, intellect and better judgement.

"There is no try. There is only doing and not doing".
(Yoda/Taoist philosophy)

stevieg46

Real faith is practicing what you believe in that works for you , faith in yourself can work for some but usually its far easier with some guidelines mainly because of preconditioning by others from childhood , AA suggests getting rid of your old ideas , its so simple if your not ''trapped in your I am right '' mode .

Regards Stevie recovered from a hopeless state of mind and body as the Big Book of AA promises 12 03 2006

IvanMike

In the same manner that your faith that flipping the light switch in your house will turn the light on. yes. - You can sit in the dark with that faith for a long time.

I have learned that faith + experience = trust. To be sure, in the beginning I probably only had desperate hope, not faith. I lived on the evidence I saw in the lives of men who said they had been where I was and who had obviously found a way out. Not just from using, but from not being comfortable in their own skin with or without getting loaded. I identified with them and saw that something was working for them.

The second step was (and still mostly is) for me a math problem. My sponsor's name is John. IF Ivan = John AND John + 12 steps = happy joyous and free recovery THEN Ivan + 12 steps = happy joyous and free recovery.

The difference is that over time my application of the steps (my "works" if you will), began to produce evidence in my own life. I no longer have to rely on the "fruits" (sorry, couldn't resist) I see in the lives of others.

"We came to believe..." implies a process, not an event, and my own experience has shown this to be true. So actually, when I think about it some more, the idea that faith must precede the works is not entirely true. For me it has been a chicken and egg phenomena. My action or "works" were carried out in sheer desperation as I didn't know what else to do. Despite my enormous misgivings about, and downright hostility to, the 12-step process, I noticed that it was working.

stevieg46

It was desperation that led me to admit my powerlessness , then finding out something about what I was suffering from led me to realize my old ways of thinking always took me to the same point , booze was a power greater than me I knew that , so I became ''willing '' to believe in something greater than me ( I had always been the great I am ) it took many wrong turns and slip ups from age 27 till age 60 before I came to believe 10 years ago , and guess what ? it came from within . take care Mike