Atheists/Agnostics with 12-step
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Hi Zero why not try some other premises other than an AA club/house ? .
Unmanageable life and powerlessness in Step 1, well you yourself decided that you did not want to continue drinking as you feel you would hit bottom , that is your prerogative ''your choice '' only desire for membership is a desire to stop drinking , you are a member of AA 'if you say so '' OK you may have got off the elevator before it hit bottom ? good for you well done .
I have been in and around AA for 43 years and yes some things have changed mainly due to wrong information and the misinformed members who's interpretation of the program has been passed onto the them from sponsors who also were misinformed . AA has a small section in the Big Book ''The Doctors Opinion '' that has not changed since 1939 yet much controversy has emerged from other agencies regarding medicine , psychiatry ,psychology and AA has no opinion on any of them as they do not endorse or oppose any other causes /fields 'denominations /sects . Unfortunately AA program has been mixed up with AA people who are misinformed, that cause all sorts of problems , AA program is ''suggested '' if people like or want it ? then go for it , if people don't want it or like it ? then walk away AA don't take prisoners , it advises if your not sure if you are an alcoholic or have a drinking problem ? go and find out go out and drink and ''decide''for yourself .
Again unfortunately some people have had bad experiences in AA either through misinformation or bad sponsorship/advice , or through their own fault , you can tell someone 6 or 7 things you did for them , but they will remember you for something you did not do for them.
People should look after their own sobriety first and foremost above everything else so that they do not get involved or aggrieved with other methods or paths that differ from their own , people from all walks of life race creed faith or non belief can find help if they want .
Finding other meetings where you fit in does not appeal to me , I go to a meeting for me , if someone is talking bull I am not long in saying so privately or publicly , another example you hear now in AA is ''90 meetings in 90 days '' that does not come from AA it comes from treatment /rehabs agencies .
Whatever you are doing to stay sober is working well as far as I am concerned you seem to have a good handle on it so well done I admire you for that , anything you do not like or agree with that ''is AA '' is your business so do not make a major issue out of it , keep it simple , complications set in when disagreements or heated discussions about recovery methods occur because we are the losers as getting uptight resentful and angry causes us to lose or cool /peace of mind and contentment I know I have been there , take care .
Regards Stevie
Unmanageable life and powerlessness in Step 1, well you yourself decided that you did not want to continue drinking as you feel you would hit bottom , that is your prerogative ''your choice '' only desire for membership is a desire to stop drinking , you are a member of AA 'if you say so '' OK you may have got off the elevator before it hit bottom ? good for you well done .
I have been in and around AA for 43 years and yes some things have changed mainly due to wrong information and the misinformed members who's interpretation of the program has been passed onto the them from sponsors who also were misinformed . AA has a small section in the Big Book ''The Doctors Opinion '' that has not changed since 1939 yet much controversy has emerged from other agencies regarding medicine , psychiatry ,psychology and AA has no opinion on any of them as they do not endorse or oppose any other causes /fields 'denominations /sects . Unfortunately AA program has been mixed up with AA people who are misinformed, that cause all sorts of problems , AA program is ''suggested '' if people like or want it ? then go for it , if people don't want it or like it ? then walk away AA don't take prisoners , it advises if your not sure if you are an alcoholic or have a drinking problem ? go and find out go out and drink and ''decide''for yourself .
Again unfortunately some people have had bad experiences in AA either through misinformation or bad sponsorship/advice , or through their own fault , you can tell someone 6 or 7 things you did for them , but they will remember you for something you did not do for them.
People should look after their own sobriety first and foremost above everything else so that they do not get involved or aggrieved with other methods or paths that differ from their own , people from all walks of life race creed faith or non belief can find help if they want .
Finding other meetings where you fit in does not appeal to me , I go to a meeting for me , if someone is talking bull I am not long in saying so privately or publicly , another example you hear now in AA is ''90 meetings in 90 days '' that does not come from AA it comes from treatment /rehabs agencies .
Whatever you are doing to stay sober is working well as far as I am concerned you seem to have a good handle on it so well done I admire you for that , anything you do not like or agree with that ''is AA '' is your business so do not make a major issue out of it , keep it simple , complications set in when disagreements or heated discussions about recovery methods occur because we are the losers as getting uptight resentful and angry causes us to lose or cool /peace of mind and contentment I know I have been there , take care .
Regards Stevie
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Originally Posted by zerothehero 
I've heard a few phrases like "God as we understood Him" were added later, but still, it's Him with a capital H.
Just for information , the Big Book was being discussed heavily about content and lots of voting took place , so in 1938 a guy called Jim Burwell a confirmed agnostic blatantly refuse to vote for ''God '' in the Big Book and steps , everyone at that time browbeated him trying to get him to change his mind , but he would not budge .
So it is thanks to him that ''God/HP as you understand him '' was put in the book and the steps . His Story the ''Vicious Cycle '' is on page 219 in the ''pioneers section '' he was number 5 . I firmly believe that if he had not stuck to his guns ? AA would be defunct today .
Regards Stevie
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
Interesting about Burwell. Thanks for the info.
I wouldn't say I'm uptight about AA. It is what it is, and it does at least as much good as it does harm, so there's that.
As for it being voluntary, I know for a fact that some people are court-ordered to attend meetings. That's not AA's fault, but I do wonder if anyone has challenged that in court under the First Amendment (U.S.).
I understand that people who have benefited from AA will feel some defensiveness when others question parts of the program, and will sometimes feel compelled to criticize the critic. It's all good. I would totally let it go if not for the fact that I'm considering the CAC route, so I'm obligated to understand it. We'll see how it goes. I could start out with the Big Book study group in the same spirit with which I approached The Bible as Literature course I took in college, or psych courses, for that matter.
I wouldn't say I'm uptight about AA. It is what it is, and it does at least as much good as it does harm, so there's that.
As for it being voluntary, I know for a fact that some people are court-ordered to attend meetings. That's not AA's fault, but I do wonder if anyone has challenged that in court under the First Amendment (U.S.).
I understand that people who have benefited from AA will feel some defensiveness when others question parts of the program, and will sometimes feel compelled to criticize the critic. It's all good. I would totally let it go if not for the fact that I'm considering the CAC route, so I'm obligated to understand it. We'll see how it goes. I could start out with the Big Book study group in the same spirit with which I approached The Bible as Literature course I took in college, or psych courses, for that matter.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: MD
Posts: 658
Concur 100% stevieg- the only reason I paid attention to the steps and literature was the "God as we understood Him" and "Higher Power". As contrived as that language can sound, it was the thing that gave me pause. The presence of something that wide open for interpretation, put in the context of an otherwise specific spiritual program was jarring to me- definitely it did not match my assumptions about how religion vs spirituality worked, That discord got me seeking in speaker tapes etc.
NA Member - Atheist
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Middletown CT USA
Posts: 770
Originally Posted by zerothehero
Just for poops and giggles I thought I would add that I was much more insane in my first year of sobriety than I was before I quit drinking. 
Try substituting "maladaptive behavior" faulty belief systems" for defects and shortcomings if it makes you feel better.
I didn't have any of those either, and i certainly wasn't insane, i just couldn't handle life and behaved and thought in the most absurd manner.... same thing.
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
Not really the same thing. My point is I question the practice of telling people (or implying through the text of the 12 Steps) who are suffering and vulnerable that they are insane and have character defects. It's not about ME feeling better; I'm concerned for all the addicts out there who are convinced (some might say brainwashed) into believing they're insane and defected. It seems almost unethical because in most cases it's just not true. Call me crazy, but though many of us are deluded, most of us are not insane. It's a poor and misleading choice of words. That's really all I'm saying.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
zero,
i take the "insanity" to refer to alcoholic insanity. my mind worked just fine in many other areas.
and since you're hanging out here on SR, all over the place you can see manifestations of that particular madness. you can see it in posts of newcomers, posts of people who've returned to drinking, in posts from people who believe they are rationally and sanely laying out their reasons for drinking again....that is what 'insanity' refers to.
i had it in my own experience, it was insane. my relationship with alcohol, my behaviour and thinking around it, my actions involving it...no, you couldn't call these things sane.
defects of character...didn't have those. didn't see how i could ever agree to that. one day, i read somewhere of a person who rephrased it as 'defenses'. huh? there were ways to think about this other than what i thought? and, oh: shortcomings? well, yes, of course i have shortcomings.
flaws? oh god ja!
see, ....i so couldn't do this until i could get to the concepts behind the horrid language. but once i could do that, it fell into place.
i'm not trying to convince you, just showing what was possible for me and how.
but, and this was/is a big but: i had clarity that what's on offer is a spiritual solution, and getting to where i understood that that is what i needed was a huge hurdle. til it wasn't.
so i have to recognize i'm in the secular 12-step section, and i can't really speak to that.
i take the "insanity" to refer to alcoholic insanity. my mind worked just fine in many other areas.
and since you're hanging out here on SR, all over the place you can see manifestations of that particular madness. you can see it in posts of newcomers, posts of people who've returned to drinking, in posts from people who believe they are rationally and sanely laying out their reasons for drinking again....that is what 'insanity' refers to.
i had it in my own experience, it was insane. my relationship with alcohol, my behaviour and thinking around it, my actions involving it...no, you couldn't call these things sane.
defects of character...didn't have those. didn't see how i could ever agree to that. one day, i read somewhere of a person who rephrased it as 'defenses'. huh? there were ways to think about this other than what i thought? and, oh: shortcomings? well, yes, of course i have shortcomings.
flaws? oh god ja!
see, ....i so couldn't do this until i could get to the concepts behind the horrid language. but once i could do that, it fell into place.
i'm not trying to convince you, just showing what was possible for me and how.
but, and this was/is a big but: i had clarity that what's on offer is a spiritual solution, and getting to where i understood that that is what i needed was a huge hurdle. til it wasn't.
so i have to recognize i'm in the secular 12-step section, and i can't really speak to that.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
zero, I am not optimistic that what I am about to say here will have much benefit, but I am going to put it out there anyway. I hope you consider it in the spirit in which it is offered.
When reading your posts I get the impression that you are not taking some of the ideas in AA in the spirit in which they are intended. For example, you state that AA is "teaching people they are insane". This gives the impression that you think AA is telling people they are psychotic, perhaps even in a clinical or diagnostic sense. I don't think that's the idea at all. The use of the phrase "restore us to sanity" which is used in the 2nd step (I will assume this is the basis for your assertion), is made explicit in the chapter More About Alcoholism. It states, "we were obliged to admit that our justification for a spree was insanely insufficient in light of what always happens". Insanity, in the context in which it is used in the book refers to judging the reality of what alcohol consumption means when we drink. In this case I think that Insanity refers to "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result". It does not refer to a diagnosis of psychosis. To say that AA teaches people they are "insane" is a bit of a distortion.
I have to wonder about where the difficulty in interpretation comes from. I have found that this is not uncommon in the children of alcoholics whose parents were briefly involved in AA, but did not get sober.
It seems from your posts that you believe that your mother was somehow harmed by AA. I don't believe that (at least based on what you've said here). I think it was alcohol that harmed her. I can't help but think that some degree of resentment might be involved in your interpretation of words like insanity, powerlessness and unmanageability. At least I think that the idea is worth a second look.
(All big book quotes are from the first edition.)
When reading your posts I get the impression that you are not taking some of the ideas in AA in the spirit in which they are intended. For example, you state that AA is "teaching people they are insane". This gives the impression that you think AA is telling people they are psychotic, perhaps even in a clinical or diagnostic sense. I don't think that's the idea at all. The use of the phrase "restore us to sanity" which is used in the 2nd step (I will assume this is the basis for your assertion), is made explicit in the chapter More About Alcoholism. It states, "we were obliged to admit that our justification for a spree was insanely insufficient in light of what always happens". Insanity, in the context in which it is used in the book refers to judging the reality of what alcohol consumption means when we drink. In this case I think that Insanity refers to "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result". It does not refer to a diagnosis of psychosis. To say that AA teaches people they are "insane" is a bit of a distortion.
I have to wonder about where the difficulty in interpretation comes from. I have found that this is not uncommon in the children of alcoholics whose parents were briefly involved in AA, but did not get sober.
It seems from your posts that you believe that your mother was somehow harmed by AA. I don't believe that (at least based on what you've said here). I think it was alcohol that harmed her. I can't help but think that some degree of resentment might be involved in your interpretation of words like insanity, powerlessness and unmanageability. At least I think that the idea is worth a second look.
(All big book quotes are from the first edition.)
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
fini, I think you can speak to "that." And I totally agree about the spirituality thing. My "spirituality" is secular, but it is spirituality, nonetheless. Spirituality was definitely missing in my life, and it wasn't until I was sober for a while that it became obvious. I had to revisit my youth when I thought I wanted to be a priest (but then rejected the dogma), and then got into psychedelics and Rainbow Gatherings and Dead shows, which, odd as it may sound to some, were spiritual ventures. In the end, though, my lack of a connection to the idea of a deity led me to abandon all that was spiritual. I could say for a long time my higher power was the Earth, but even that got lost in the fog that descended on my existential vacuum. Mindfulness has helped fill that vacuum, or at least rekindle a sense of magic. Simply summoning my curiosity and basic awareness mixed with new found clarity rekindles magic. And those moments during meditation when my mind quiets and the language stops... I can't put words to it. Trungpa called it basic goodness. Some call it direct experience. Peaceful abiding. It's almost like experiencing quantum physics (instead of just thinking about it). Then again, maybe I just tap into some long lost micrograms of LSD stuck deep in my brain. 
Anyway, talking about Secular 12 Steps doesn't mean abandoning the idea of a spiritual awakening. To me it's about reinterpreting the 12 Steps to try to fit into a world view that, in my mind, doesn't fit the 12 Steps as they are written. I suspect the person who started this thread got more than asked for, but this is what it's all about. It could be argued that I interpret the Steps too literally, like a fundamentalist interprets the Bible. If I take the 12 Steps in their entirety, I have to reject them. If I pick and choose that which makes sense to me, I can gain something. Heck, I've even found wisdom in the Bible!
Anyway, talking about Secular 12 Steps doesn't mean abandoning the idea of a spiritual awakening. To me it's about reinterpreting the 12 Steps to try to fit into a world view that, in my mind, doesn't fit the 12 Steps as they are written. I suspect the person who started this thread got more than asked for, but this is what it's all about. It could be argued that I interpret the Steps too literally, like a fundamentalist interprets the Bible. If I take the 12 Steps in their entirety, I have to reject them. If I pick and choose that which makes sense to me, I can gain something. Heck, I've even found wisdom in the Bible!
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
awuh1, I appreciate your thoughts, especially about the interpretation of insanity. The problem I see is in the words and behaviors of people at AA meetings, and the gut reactions people have when they read the 12 Steps and feel pressured to accept them (which happens). I've been to numerous different meetings, and sometimes I'm swarmed afterwards in a way that reminds me of experiences when I've visited a church for the first time. I can't really fault people, though, for enthusiastically wanting to save another lost soul.
As for my mom, yes, alcohol harmed her, but the 12 Steps turned her off (and she was a God-loving Catholic). It was the way some of the Steps are worded that pushed her away. Some could say it was the alcohol that led her to be defensive, but people get defensive when they're told they have to be restored to sanity when they do not perceive themselves as insane, regardless of what may or may not be written deeper in the literature.
I mean, read Steps 6 and 7 out of context. Any atheist might think, "Now, THAT's insane."
But I keep going back to the message that addicts have character defects or need to be restored to sanity, and how reading those Steps over and over sink in until people believe it (regardless of whether or not He needs to remove the defects or restore the sanity). But I'm repeating myself.
I prefer teaching people that they control their own destinies, that they're already sane, that they don't have character defects, that they've made a lot of mistakes and suffered from harmful thinking and behaviors, but that by learning to think and behave differently they can be their own pilots.
As for my mom, yes, alcohol harmed her, but the 12 Steps turned her off (and she was a God-loving Catholic). It was the way some of the Steps are worded that pushed her away. Some could say it was the alcohol that led her to be defensive, but people get defensive when they're told they have to be restored to sanity when they do not perceive themselves as insane, regardless of what may or may not be written deeper in the literature.
I mean, read Steps 6 and 7 out of context. Any atheist might think, "Now, THAT's insane."
But I keep going back to the message that addicts have character defects or need to be restored to sanity, and how reading those Steps over and over sink in until people believe it (regardless of whether or not He needs to remove the defects or restore the sanity). But I'm repeating myself.
I prefer teaching people that they control their own destinies, that they're already sane, that they don't have character defects, that they've made a lot of mistakes and suffered from harmful thinking and behaviors, but that by learning to think and behave differently they can be their own pilots.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: MD
Posts: 658
Zero, could you comment on your interpretation of how the 12-and-12 clarifies the Steps (or not)? I found it a moderating influence, putting the Steps in context, particularly relating to one's behavior. IIRC I found it so helpful I bought a copy of it before I did the Big Book...
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
I have to go to work, but briefly: My understanding of the traditions is that they are largely organizational and apolitical. However, if you read the full text of Tradition One you'll find the last paragraph.
Thus has it been with A.A. By faith and by works we have been able to build upon the lessons of an incredible experience. They live today in the Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, which - God willing - shall sustain us in unity for so long as He may need us.
Speaks pretty clearly to the sense that A.A. at its roots and foundation is a religious organization.
Thus has it been with A.A. By faith and by works we have been able to build upon the lessons of an incredible experience. They live today in the Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, which - God willing - shall sustain us in unity for so long as He may need us.
Speaks pretty clearly to the sense that A.A. at its roots and foundation is a religious organization.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: MD
Posts: 658
The 12-and-12 is more than a list of the traditions, thought thats the second 12 in the name. The book explains a lot about the practical and philosophical basis for the Steps, its not a religious text or even about religion at all. It does talk about God the same way the BB does but its more about discovering and getting closer to one's own higher power, whatever it is. I would propose it as essential reading after the BB, to explain the steps more fully.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Originally Posted by zerothehero
I have to go to work, but briefly: My understanding of the traditions is that they are largely organizational and apolitical. However, if you read the full text of Tradition One you'll find the last paragraph.
Thus has it been with A.A. By faith and by works we have been able to build upon the lessons of an incredible experience. They live today in the Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, which - God willing - shall sustain us in unity for so long as He may need us.
Speaks pretty clearly to the sense that A.A. at its roots and foundation is a religious organization.
Thus has it been with A.A. By faith and by works we have been able to build upon the lessons of an incredible experience. They live today in the Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, which - God willing - shall sustain us in unity for so long as He may need us.
Speaks pretty clearly to the sense that A.A. at its roots and foundation is a religious organization.
Read the book ''The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail '' and you will discover facts from ''Roman Times '' who were meticulous at record keeping . Fact is Constantine the roman Emperor was a ''sun worshipper '' and the followers of Jesus were multiplying that fast that he ''politically '' gave his approval when in fact he wore 'two hats'that's when you can say ''Christianity '' was born .
Now Jesus was a Jew and to this day the Jesuits do not recognize him as God they consider him a prophet and the Jesuits do not recognize the ''Lords Prayer '' either . Back then you can say the Roman Church was born and the book mentions in great detail how ''man '' manipulated and put in place all sorts of rituals and instructions for the ''believers '' to follow , they even cherry picked the gospels to suit there own ends , to this day buried deep in the vaults of the Vatican are various gospels that differ greatly from the recognized ones , its suggested that Mary Magdalene and Jesus were married and had a family and settled in France, to this day there is a ''sect '' who claim to be descendants of the ''holy blood ?'' don't know or care if its true or not but there is a lot more to know it than meets the eye .
Religions all over the world imagine God as ''above or up there on high as in heaven '' or there own name for it .
Now if you believe anything out of the Gospels then read in Luke when Jesus was asked ''will I be beside you in the kingdom of God /Heaven ? '' depending on bible version , Jesus replied '' the kingdom of God /Heaven is Within ? '' personally that is when I came to believe as in the 2nd step and it took me 33 years to do so .
To me all feelings and thoughts of a loving and kind manner are ''spiritual '' as they come from ''within '' so to me God as I understand him is spiritual . I spent all those years trying to ''understand something I could not believe in , or believe in something I couldn't understand '' now that to me is ''keeping it simple '' and if you like as the Big Book states ''getting rid of old ideas ''in my case God as religious .
Gave me a complete reversal of my thinking which enhanced my recovery , that and learning to ''keep an open mind '' was a big help , take care Zero .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
The mind is like a parachute it only functions when its open .
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 2,051
Originally Posted by zerothehero
I have to go to work, but briefly: My understanding of the traditions is that they are largely organizational and apolitical. However, if you read the full text of Tradition One you'll find the last paragraph.
Thus has it been with A.A. By faith and by works we have been able to build upon the lessons of an incredible experience. They live today in the Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, which - God willing - shall sustain us in unity for so long as He may need us.
Speaks pretty clearly to the sense that A.A. at its roots and foundation is a religious organization.
Thus has it been with A.A. By faith and by works we have been able to build upon the lessons of an incredible experience. They live today in the Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, which - God willing - shall sustain us in unity for so long as He may need us.
Speaks pretty clearly to the sense that A.A. at its roots and foundation is a religious organization.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Originally Posted by zerothehero
I've heard a few phrases like "God as we understood Him" were added later, but still, it's Him with a capital H.
AA was (and is) itself the manifestation of huge and successful paradigm shift. It takes time and a long hard look to appreciate this. Many with a superficial examination just see a religion, particularly if they are averse to it. If you think yet another paradigm shift will help the alcoholic that still suffers, and who cannot get sober with AA, I sincerely hope you can express and disseminate it. If it's 1/10th as successful as AA it will be a marvelous accomplishment.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Johnston could you please explain how religion and spiritual are the same . ?
Religion to me is for those who are taught how to believe worship and pray to a God so they wont go to hell . If religion means God and God is love ? how come we don't have ''spiritual wars ?''
Spiritual is to ''experience '' you cannot teach that and lots of spiritual people have been released from hell of their own making as I have , at one time I was so ''heavenly I was no earthly use to anyone '' take care .
regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
Religion to me is for those who are taught how to believe worship and pray to a God so they wont go to hell . If religion means God and God is love ? how come we don't have ''spiritual wars ?''
Spiritual is to ''experience '' you cannot teach that and lots of spiritual people have been released from hell of their own making as I have , at one time I was so ''heavenly I was no earthly use to anyone '' take care .
regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Over the years I've I learn it's important to be feel comfortable with my own view of AA. Bill Wilson himself was flawed (as we all are) and the 12-steps are guidelines. However, I don't view them as the end all to emotional sobriety. Take what you want and leave the rest. A sponsor in AA isn't a must but it does help to have someone reliable who you can run life's difficulties by.
But when the smoke clears and all is said you simply can't beat the price. AA is free and nobody the boss.
Peace out.
But when the smoke clears and all is said you simply can't beat the price. AA is free and nobody the boss.
Peace out.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Roseville, Ca
Posts: 35
Zero said:
"I still struggle with this and could benefit from community, but...
It's not so much the God or Higher Power thing that throws me. I can let my "practice" be the higher power.
But I stumble step after step."
Atheists/Agnostics with 12-step is just a place for "Fake it to you make it" for true believers imo. Spiritual, pray, serenity, Buddhism etc. etc. etc. it's all religion to me, leave it all at the door and get on with recovery. I don't have a problem with folks talking about what works for them but don't try and sell what works for you to me. Recovery is for ppl of all faiths and everything in between including no belief at all.
What works for you is what you should do, choice in recovery will help more ppl.
"I still struggle with this and could benefit from community, but...
It's not so much the God or Higher Power thing that throws me. I can let my "practice" be the higher power.
But I stumble step after step."
Atheists/Agnostics with 12-step is just a place for "Fake it to you make it" for true believers imo. Spiritual, pray, serenity, Buddhism etc. etc. etc. it's all religion to me, leave it all at the door and get on with recovery. I don't have a problem with folks talking about what works for them but don't try and sell what works for you to me. Recovery is for ppl of all faiths and everything in between including no belief at all.
What works for you is what you should do, choice in recovery will help more ppl.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Roseville, Ca
Posts: 35
the below was in my inbox today, like politics believers/non believers will never be settled
An Agnostic Reflects on AA Today | AA Agnostica
An Agnostic Reflects on AA Today | AA Agnostica
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
