No Jeffery, I don't feel I need to "defend AA to the last breath". But I do find the characterization of AA as a "sober mafia" quite amusing. :) BTW, I think you are once again jumping to conclusions when you state that I believe that you are making this up. I said no such thing in my post. I have no doubt that you believe what you were told. Perhaps you should be open to the idea that what you were told has a bit of hyperbole attached to it, or worse. Again, the motivation for death threats escapes me.

allforcnm, I'm curious about your experience. Was it the treatment center staff that expressed ill will towards you and your family or was it unpaid AA people somehow associated with the treatment center? I have had a bit of experience with wacky treatment center staff, so this is a bit easier to imagine, particularly if they had the impression you were telling them how to do their jobs or run their program. Also, was this ill will that was expressed solely in response to the mere suggestion that patients be exposed to other approaches to alcoholism and addiction? If so this is also difficult for me to imagine (let alone believe). Were there other events that were associated with those individuals wishing your dog to be run over by a car?

Perhaps I misunderstood Jeffery. I had the impression that the "AA sober mafia" were operating from outside of the treatment center, and carefully orchestrating their resistance.

awuh1, the person in Denver filed a police report. Is that hyperbole? Why is it so hard for you to accept that these things really do happen, to the point that you feel compelled to condescendingly claim it's made up or somehow grossly exaggerated? There are some really nasty people in AA, and it shows sometimes when they feel threatened by other people providing alternatives. That's how it is. There are reasons why so many people view AA as a cult, and it's because of the people who act like cultists in the name of AA.

Jeffery, I have no trouble accepting that people in all walks of life will do all sorts of wacky things. This certainly does not exclude members of AA. What I do have trouble believing is that death threats are generated by the mere suggestion of offering alternatives to AA within a treatment setting. There simply must be more to the story than that.

When it's suggested that AA members act in some "carefully orchestrated" fashion as a "sober mafia", I have to admit this forces a smile. :)

I agree, hence the reason for the thread ;)

I understand you wanting to defend AA based on his comment. That is cool

Did you have anything to offer the discussion as it relates to my original topic or question? I wish for this thread not to be derailed.

I'm sorry weaver. I cannot offer any reasons that have not already been mentioned. It was not my intention to derail the thread.

I happen to believe that these other approaches should be introduced to people who have chosen treatment. I believe that for a variety of reasons , not everyone can benefit from AA. People at least need the choice of other tools, and treatment centers should provide this.

I'll bow out. Again my apologies.

I think it's a case of letting people know there are alternatives to AA, rehab, etc... Not trying to change AA or treatment centres but offer an alternative, I think. In the same way that alternative medicine and practitioners are available for those who wish for an alternative to mainstream medical services. It seems to me than maybe instead of trying to 'infiltrate' the current systems the idea is to offer an alternative for those who find the popular option not such a good fit. As far as changing in-patient detox centres and the like, this is obviously vastly different the world over but those who have no choice in their options could benefit in some way. I'm not sure how things work in other countries but in the UK I believe no-one is forced to address their problems unless their behaviour has caused problems for 'society' so I am seeing this as akin to the way the prison service works e.g. If your behaviour caused you to be there then you need to learn the rules to regain your freedom. I maybe totally off on a tangent but it made sense in my head!
I agree more alternatives should be available for those looking for such but I also believe, in my experience, that alternatives are easier to find now than 20 years ago so progress is still progressing.
Driving my wagon of hope through beautiful views on my road to myself

I think it's a case of letting people know there are alternatives to AA, rehab...
in many places, there aren't.
and that's often because people can't be bothered to get up and do it.

how many people in these secular forums here have taken their own wish for alternatives to heart and checked out the requirements to become a LR convenor (six months sobriety, reading a handbook which is even available on line, backing up the LR 3s "philosophy" )and then put in the footwork of getting a meeting going?? or two. or three. so that more others will have access and can be encouraged to also start meetings.

a lot of people on these forums could could actually provide the alternatives instead of bemoaning their absence.

just sayin'....and having done it, i'll add that the benefits of making myself do that with someone else had huge benefits for cementing in my sobriety.

I agree with you completely Fini
So often we complain of a lack of something and expect others to provide
Nothing of worth in this life without hard work and then some more work.
I would imagine cementing your sobriety in this way is very rewarding work

Driving my wagon of hope through beautiful views on my road to myself

Well, and you have to be be deferential to the clique that rules the board level and views itself as the LR higher power, or at least not dare cross it in any way, but that's a separate thread. :) No organization is perfect, which is one appealing aspect of RR - no meetings, no hierarchy, just a philosophy. The most powerful aspect of LR for me was simply reading Empowering Your Sober Self, though by that point I already had some solid sober time from medical outpatient groups.

I know over at Smart Recovery they have a training program for people who want to volunteer online, or with face to face meetings.

I think its great meetings are available when needed for people and I believe nothing will stop the growth of alternative options.

I do have to be honest and say I feel good neither my husband or myself are tied to meetings. I really like the independent path with CBT and changes in awareness. This wont mean much to you guys maybe, but stress played a big part in my husbands addiction. Last week over holiday he turned off his work phone, and this weekend he skipped his voluntary half day on Saturday. Hes really learning to take better care of himself emotionally and physically. So happy!

Very interesting thread.
I attended two IOP's. The first one was concentrated on counseling (individual and group). But no 12-step was implemented. That was my first experience with recovery. Then later when I relapsed I joined a program that was dual diagnosis. They pretty much followed the same types of ideas as my first one. It wasn't till coming to this forum that I found out that most rehabs follow 12-steps. I had no idea! So this thread is helping me to understand it better. I'm assuming it has to to do with funding in the area? And maybe how well-known or indoctrinated the community is with 12-step philosophy? I happen to live in a largely populated area of the north-east. Maybe, that is why?

Jeffrey,
my non-deferential comment is that you can convene LR meetings without being deferential.
common courtesy and civility served me well enough in many interactions with Board members.

I think all of you raise some very good points. I went through an IOP which was not twelve step based. My complain is upon "graduation" they didn't give enough varied resources for post rehab. I agree that inertia and the various groups outside of AA are splintered enough that there isn't enough "voice" for anything other than AA to be "heard." I second the thoughts about WFS for women. I like the program itself and there is a lot of good material in it. Unfortunately from what I can see at the moment they do very little public outreach so one only hears about them through word of mouth or targeted Google searches. Unfortunately they don't have a ton of face to face groups in proportion to the number of women out there and online communities are nice but there is nothing like face to face. Great thread here and I'm reading it with interest.

When I entered an inpatient treatment facility in 1988, the "disease concept" was in full bloom. Insurance companies were paying thousands and thousands of dollars for 28-day substance abuse treatment programs for practically anyone--sometimes more than once. It was my orientation to the 12-step programs, and honestly, I did not know anything else existed. My counselors were sober alcoholics who immersed us in 12-step recovery. In all fairness, there were other components to the program that helped me to understand my issues, and I was allowed moments of catharsis. All in all, it was a good, life-saving experience. I left with lots of tools, I was comfortable in meetings, and I was committed to sobriety.
Fast forward a few years: I was the 12-step educated case manager-turned counselor using just what I had been given. Picture an AA meeting but with cross-talk and "care-fronting" and you'll have an idea of the treatment we offered. Yet again we were discharging patients with a tool box similar to the one I had been given. Discharge planning included arranging for a week's work of AA or NA meetings.
As years passed, as my career progressed and broadened in scope, as I learned more about alcoholism and spirituality, I realized there were alternatives to the "AA for sale" approach. By then insurance companies had tightened the financial reins, and it seemed that the public was less sympathetic to the alcoholic's plight. As has been mentioned in this thread, 12-step programs are among the most ubiquitous, and it made sense to use meetings as part of the continuum of care. Many patients were being discharged to rural communities where they were lucky to find 2 or 3 AA meetings per week. Alternatives were practically unheard of!
As a patient and as a staff member I valued the generosity of AA members who brought meetings to the facility. Some even acted as short-term sponsors and helped patients transition back into their communities. I also acknowledge that some few AA members who were fiercely in need of validation expressed that in their "AA or the highway" approaches. That is unfortunate, but then again, what is the AA fellowship but yet another slice of life.
I digress. My apologies.
Perhaps it is simply that my own practice has been scaled down to the essentials that I see things this way, but while AA has inundated treatment programs, treatment-speak has found its way into meetings. It was many years before I understood that many of the slogans, the recommendations, the language, etc had been influenced by treatment communities. Some people believe--and perhaps there is something to it--that treatment centers espouse the disease concept, "recovering" as opposed to "recovered", etc for the purpose of keeping people in sick mode.
There is a bit of irony, I think, that despite AA's "attraction rather than promotion" approach it remains the go-to recommendation by judges, marginally trained counselors, and well-meaning family members. I has been known to work, after all. But I also understand why it does not speak to some people, and for those I hope they find the gift of sobriety in another package.

For those interested in this topic, maybe check out AA Agnostica

I wish there was more of a choice when i attended rehab about 6 years ago in Spain, i did complete the steps although i was somewhat dubious about the action of co-depending on a God to run my life, seemed like it was just enabling the same addiction i went in there for..
Cut a long story short i found out close to the end of my month long stay that the owner and main councelor at this place was an active alcoholic.... i share this in meetings ocasonally and it always produces blank stares from the clone army sitting opposite :-)
´G´
´recovery is inevitable, never a miracle´

There is a judge in my AA group and many members in the group he forces into AA. I spent over 20 years in AA love the fellowship but not the program, now I am in Life Ring and I hope it continues to grow. People in recovery need choice.

Zero, cheers to AA Agnostica great website

Thanks, Fred. Reviewing this thread got me thinking. The AA Fellowship, in my experience, does have a strong element of dogmatism, and perhaps that dogmatism is what causes people in recovery to promote it and defend it in rehab circles. Plus, it works for a lot of people.

But an example of that dogmatism is the local AA house in my town. I asked if it would be possible to start a Refuge Recovery group at the house, adding that Noah Levine (founder) encourages it as a supplement rather than a replacement to AA (well, he says that in the book, but in speeches I'm thinking he's changing his mind about that). Anyway, I was told no, but I could do a 12th Step meditation group. When they learned I had not formally worked the 12 Steps with a sponsor I was told no. I have done the 12 Steps on my own, following Kevin Griffin's Buddhist 12 Step model, though.

So, instead of having the opportunity to work WITH the AA community, I'm put in a position to COMPETE with them. Yes, there is no monetary motivation (for them or for me), but the dogmatism and strong belief in the program creates a motivation to keep AA "pure" and dominant.

I've started taking CAC courses, and I'm currently reading and practicing MBRP on my own. Mindfulness Based Relapse Prevention stems from MBSR (Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction), and MBCT (Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy). These are structured group approaches facilitated by trained counselors. I've simply read the books and followed the curriculum, but I can see that the practices could work with a support community. The book recommends a structured approach, but they are not opposed to an open meeting model.

Oops... gotta run...